Post by @screwlisp@gamerplus.org

#lisp1 and #lisp2, reading Kent's #halfbaked, moo.el #lambdaMOO (and you). #lispyGopherClimate

https://toobnix.org/w/dq3QQwgwJ4ENfuFpaqnyzC

#lispyGopherClimate Sunday morning in Europe #lisp #livestream not doing very much but I am reading @kentpitman https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Half-Baked/index-spiel.html on reconciling lisp1 and lisp2

and you can see me using @nosrednayduj 's #emacs #mud moo.el (git) for multimooing local/remote #lambdaMOO #VR and things. https://codeberg.org/nosrednayduj/moo-el

Kent's Half-Baked Ideas

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#halfbaked #lisp2 #lisp1 #lambdamoo #mud #vr #lispygopherclimate #lisp #livestream #emacs

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Simon Brooke

@simon_brooke@mastodon.scot 8 hr. ago

@screwlisp @kentpitman @nosrednayduj I'm someone who generally argues on the #Lisp1 side of the debate. I believe that #CommonLisp's rigid separation of code and data namespaces was a very poor design choice. But it is more complex than 'Lisp1 good, Lisp2 bad.' In practice, multiple namespaces are almost essential in large systems.

Vassil Nikolov

@vnikolov@ieji.de 7 hr. ago

Yes, it is more complicated than that.
In addition to the above, I'd say "unfortunate", rather than "poor", since these matters were not understood in 1958 and then later only Scheme could afford such an incompatible change.
Moreover, any problems with Lisp-2 are minor as language design problems go.

#CommonLisp
#Lisp
#Lisp1
#Lisp2

@simon_brooke @screwlisp @kentpitman @nosrednayduj

Simon Brooke

@simon_brooke@mastodon.scot 6 hr. ago

@vnikolov @screwlisp @kentpitman @nosrednayduj Portable Standard #Lisp and #InterLisp are both also #Lisp1. There are equally good historical reasons why #CommonLisp should have been Lisp1 as Lisp2, which is why we had such a big and bruising fight over it back in 1986.

I was on the losing side; I do think the decision was mainly political, not technical.

Paolo Amoroso

@amoroso@oldbytes.space 3 hr. ago

@simon_brooke Is Interlisp a Lisp-1? From the Interlisp site:

Like Common Lisp but unlike Scheme, Interlisp is a LISP-2 language. This means, in part, that the namespace for variables is separate from the namespace for functions. For example, in Interlisp and Common Lisp, you can simultaneously have a variable named ABC and a function named ABC that are unrelated.

https://interlisp.org/software/using-medley/cl-using/#lisp-2

@vnikolov @screwlisp @kentpitman @nosrednayduj

The Medley Interlisp Project

Interlisp Basics for Common Lisp users

If you are familiar with Common Lisp, this guide helps with some unexpected features. Advice for newcomers A coding project is a great learning experience. But porting existing Common Lisp software to Medley may be challenging as a first project. Modern Common Lisps are similar and implement most of ANSI Common Lisp. Adapting software to these environments usually involves minor modifications you can carry out with familiar tools. But the Medley environment is very different and its Common Lisp farther from ANSI.

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Simon Brooke

@simon_brooke@mastodon.scot 1 hr. ago

@amoroso @vnikolov @screwlisp @kentpitman @nosrednayduj was that new in Medley? It's so long ago I don't recall. My memory is that InterLisp was a Lisp1, and that the fight over Lisp2 was mainly about trying to block InterLisp. But my memory is not 100% reliable these days.