@AdrianRiskin @ambiguous_yelp Indeed. Animals and humans cohabitate, and have formed cooperative and, yes, mutually beneficial relationships. There is no cycle without others to fill the niches in ecosystem we cannot fill, and the vegan standpoint that it is immoral for anything to die by our hand is illogical, as is the "speciesist" stance (though they kill untold trillions of microbial lifeforms each and every day in the movements of their lives) that it is speciesist to decide whose life is supported by the life of another. It is a viewpoint which is strictly linear and hierarchical, and cannot fathom a lack of hierarchy and the kind of mutualistic web that we exist within or that land-connected peoples have understood for millions of years. And truthfully it is only the product of colonialism and global food systems: only contemplative disciplines ever practiced veganism historically, and it was with willing regard for life and cycles and the knowing that they were denying themselves. Veganism is not a culturally viable practice for many, and dogmatic and prosyletizing veganism stands in ideological opposition to food sovereignty in many instances. Its morality is also philosophically quite flimsy, but it makes its adherents feel good about themselves, and therefore it is quite a tempting stance to adopt.
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We cannot avoid killing microbes, we can avoid treating chickens bodies like machines that are here to produce *for humans*
To suggest that because all ways of living cause some harm to non-humans invalidates the whole vegan position is a form of appeal to nirvana fallacy. Just because the perfect cannot be attained doesn't mean we shouldnt avoid obvious exploitation wherever we can
Actually antihierarchy is a foundational part of veganism, I'm a veganarchist, for me extending fundamental rights to non-humans is part of a wider anarchist project of dismantling systems of supremacy. When you put "food sovereignty" above other creatures right to life you are perpetuating a human supremacist hierarchy. You are saying that our human ambitions excuse exploiting their bodies.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "culturally viable" but any culture that necessitates unnecessary death and exploitation is not an excuse for exploitation its just a self serving rationalization for continuing to benefit from the subjugation of other species
From an anarchist perspective what it comes down to is this, for most of human history humans have leveraged their immense power over other species for their own ends with varying degrees of consideration to their wellbeing. As the population has gotten larger the demand for animal products has skyrocketed and now farming them has become incompatible with continued life on earth.
But the whole time there has been an implied consensus that other animals were here for us to use. That by way of us being able to kill them we were justified in killing them, and when self imposed limits were placed on hunting etc it wasnt for the non-humans benefit, it was to allow their continued exploitation forever
And the veganarchist position is this: that this supposed right of humans to kill other animals for our own purposes is a power hierarchy, and its an incredibly violent hierarchy that needs to be dismantled for the sake of the vast majority of creatures on this planet. So the claim that as a vegan I inherently justify a hierarchy of other species is unfounded.
@ambiguous_yelp @rancholibertad Microbes most likely have no moral value. What matters is cognition not life. Many nonhuman animals clearly have cognition. Predation in ecosystem isn’t inherently morally good either. We should also act to reduce #WildAnimalSuffering as well
@jlou @ambiguous_yelp I know that you're untethered to reality by the phrase "predation in ecosystem isn't necessarily morally good, either".
You cannot colonize all the wild animals and force them to not kill one another. Death is a part of life. That you have been sanitized and you think you are now outside of it does not mean that you are.
At least the other arguments about me exploiting chickens had some tenuous tether to reality, though we picked something we found easy to argue (my microbe comment which wasn't really the most genuine argument tbf) and conveniently have ignored everything I have said about cultural food ways and the reality of cultivation - because you literally *have no idea* but you're more relentless than an evangelist harassing me because I mentioned eggs in passing. I gave you good advice, and you just ignored it.
But what you did say that was telling was that ultimately any culture that must kill animals shouldn't exist, and that's when I realized: you are not a good person. You said, out loud, online, that we need to tame all the savages and murderers of the world with our superior moral rationality. I need you to take that to heart right now. You say you're against hierarchy, but you told on yourself. You love one kind of person - starvation and castration for the rest. Who benefits from your viewpoint, I wonder? Not my chickens if I start giving them hormone injections, certainly. Not us, reclaiming our land, you'd have us starve. Who benefits? You. White people. Your global food industry that enslaves and murders us. You say you're against all death, but you're not. If you can have your cashews, you're fine with brown people dying for them.
I will report you if you continue. This harassment needs to stop. I never asked you to not be vegan.
You dont get to call me a white supremacist and then say its harassment for me to defend myself report me all you want I stand by what I've said, you're free to critique me but don't try to tell me I'm not allowed to defend myself
The poorest countries in the world eat staple vegan foods and eat far less flesh than richer countries because as I mentioned in other replies it is thermodynamically inefficient to filter your nutrients through someone elses body. Meat and animal products are among the most expensive foods in the world, so much so that transitioning to a diet with more animal products is often seen as a sign of an economy becoming richer, its eating animal products thats a trait of rich countries not the other way around
Which countries have the highest percentage of vegans? Its india and mexico at 9% each[1]
Most food not bombs groups serve vegan food because its cheaper and you feed more people that way[2],
Some of the poorest communities in South east asia for example eat duckweed as a staple which is great for cleaning polluted waterways, uses no pesticides and herbicides and has a higher complete protein percent than eggs[3]
In general, animal agriculture relies on massive deforestation in colonized countries to grow the feed, because of trophic energy loss, it will always take more land to produce the same amount of calories in flesh form because most of that feed isnt converted to edible calories, as seen in joseph poores 2018 metastudy "Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers" found that a global plant based food system would use about 76% less agricultural land[4]
I do not think that someone should starve rather than eat animal products, you are projecting your position that global vegan diets are impossible onto me: it is my position that in fact we could feed the whole world many times over if we stopped eating animal products because plant based food systems on the whole are much more efficient and less labour intensive,
Plus eating flesh puts you at additional health disadvantages like cancer, food poisoning, heart disease, parasites etc, health issues overwhelmingly associated with eating animals products and for good reasons, and which will disproportionately affect the poorest countries in the world with the least access to advanced healthcare
[1]
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/veganism-by-country
[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_Not_Bombs
[3]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqTUHE7NFA
[4]
https://josephpoore.com/Science%20360%206392%20987%20-%20Accepted%20Manuscript.pdf
@ambiguous_yelp @rancholibertad you are being exactly the kind of white vegan who (rightfully!) gives white vegans a bad name. You do NOT come into an Indigenous person's mentions to arrogantly lecture them like this. You were met with assumptions you were acting in good faith, you were told the way you were behaving was racist, and instead of having some humbleness and considering you may in fact be in the wrong in your behaviour, you doubled down.
I'm a settler and a lifelong vegetarian, and an on-again off-again vegan: I'm sympathetic to some (some!) of your arguments. But how you've conducted yourself here is completely unacceptable, you're just making the experience of Indigenous people on mastodon worse, when if you see something you disagree with you could just scroll on by instead.
@idzie
Indigenous people are not a special group. You are subject to criticism like everyone else.
@ambiguous_yelp @rancholibertad
I don't accept that anything I've said today is racist, as I explained in more detail above, veganism isn't anti poor indigenous people because plant based food systems are more efficient, you can feed more people and less people starve, I want the exact opposite of what I was accused of