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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

About Bluesky and federation:
Edit: There might be some mistakes, and my information could be outdated, but the point still stands - Bluesky wasn't built on 100% federation from the start.

I've been wondering about Bluesky's decentralization again. I can't think of any reason why I'd want to self-host Bluesky in its current form. I cannot 100% self host "my own Bluesky".

Their main selling points for building their own protocol were easier migration and better discoverability, but right now there's no simple way to migrate my Bluesky account to my own instance. And hosting the centralized parts yourself isn't really possible, or if it were, not affordable, they haven't made that feasible, by design, it seems.

Even if you self-host a PDS, Bluesky's Relay only indexes up to 10 accounts from it. You can run more, but they won't federate, the central infrastructure decides what gets seen. They control this (source: https://docs.bsky.app/blog/self-host-federation#:~:text=For%20a%20smooth%20transition%20into,for%20everyone%20in%20the%20ecosystem.). You can self-host a PDS (Personal Data Server), but you still depend on Bluesky's centralized Relay and AppView. There's no production-ready alternative infrastructure from what I gather.

It feels like I'd be renting a room in a hotel that someone else is running anyway, when I want my own hotel.

If Mastodon gGmbH vanishes tomorrow, my instance keeps running and federating with everyone else. If Bluesky PBC vanishes, the ecosystem would need to scramble to stand up replacement infrastructure that doesn't really exist yet.

ATProto keeps getting evaluated on its promises while other systems get evaluated on their merits. The "portability" selling point depends on infrastructure that isn't mature enough to actually catch you if Bluesky falls.

I trust W3C, the builders and fathers of the World Wide Web, ActivityPub and the Fediverse.

#Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

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LarsNygard
LarsNygard
@Lach@social.linux.pizza replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 days ago

@rolle

The problem with self hosting and mastodon is that only a handful of tech people actually care to host their own. Hosting an instance starts to cost serious money if you have a lot of users.

I think the best solution would be a torrent based solution that can run entirely in a browser. I've started working on such a client, but development is stale right now for resources, time and knowledge.

I've successfully synced profiles from LAN to a mobile on cellular network, so the concept should work.

If anyone wants to take a look, fork or join, let me know:

https://github.com/larsnygard/SnartNet

GitHub

GitHub - larsnygard/SnartNet: Verified, signed, and decentralized social media and messaging.

Verified, signed, and decentralized social media and messaging. - larsnygard/SnartNet
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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 days ago

@Lach "Only a handful"? As far as I know, there are tens of thousands of instances in the Fediverse. You can host your own server on the Fediverse with a Raspberry Pi if you want, or you can start a WordPress blog anywhere and use that. Or you can start using Ghost or Writefreely without any technical knowledge. The same definitely doesn't apply to Bluesky.

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LarsNygard
LarsNygard
@Lach@social.linux.pizza replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 days ago

@rolle

Not everyone can host their own. Most of my friends and family can't. If you host an instance and get two thousand users, it won't be free to host. Ten thousands instances is a handful in this matter. And if you host your own instance and have a million followers?

Torrents can scale for all of this. It will also be impossible to block. No central servers to attack. No central storage of data.

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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 days ago

@Lach Yeah, P2P works to some extent. The Nostr blockchain concept is also quite interesting. But in my opinion, the Fediverse thrives because we share resources to a certain degree. Not every post is hosted by every instance.

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Tommi › FOSDEM 🤯
Tommi › FOSDEM 🤯
@tommi@pan.rent replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle What do you think, @sirodoht?

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hallunke23 🇺🇦:nona:
hallunke23 🇺🇦:nona:
@hallunke23@troet.cafe replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

Well, I recently discovered that Bluesky got one step closer to decentralization:
It is now possible to set up DIDs without depending on Bluesky's services. If you look into the AT spec, you will find that there are now two types of DIDs that can be used for Bluesky: did:plc (which can only be issued by Bluesky) and did:web which essentially consist of a domain name. So an AT user of johndoe.example.com could have a DID of did:web:johndoe.example.com.

But now there are at least 3

(1/2) @rolle

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Caio C. G. Oliveira
Caio C. G. Oliveira
@caiocgo@social.vivaldi.net replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle

Bluesky is not to be trusted. It is just Twitter, bit delayed.


#Decentralization #SelfHosting #SelfHosted #Mastodon #Fediverse #Bluesky #Servers

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Mathew Storm
Mathew Storm
@smattymatty@socialontario.ca replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle

That's crazy. I wonder why they are trying so hard to look decentralized, when under the hood they really aren't.

If they truly cared about decentralization, they would have implemented the already existing ActivityPub it became a W3C recommended standard in 2018...

Something fishy about bluesky. Thanks for sharing, I didn't know about this!

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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@smattymatty Their problem is they wanted their own from the begin with, to control. They claim that Fediverse and ActivityPub community have been "suspicious" towards them, but also "it’d have been a difficult collaboration if we chose to use AP, especially since we weren’t willing to compromise on some of the decisions". I see it they never even wanted to try.

https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/issues/255#issuecomment-1287953987

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Jens Ljungkvist
Jens Ljungkvist
@jens@toots.nu replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle

This is why I’m on the Fediverse, bridging with BlueSky. Because I’d be happy to federate with them, if they’d open up as standard.

But they don’t. They want to keep to themselves unless someone explicitly says they want to bridge to Fediverse.

That’s the reason I don’t really trust BlueSky.

Did you see the European PDS, EuroSky?

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Stefan Bohacek
Stefan Bohacek
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle Well, the problem is that vast majority of people don't care about this.

*But*, one lesson from the forkiverse should be, this is still a great selling point for community organizers. And they can bring over their people.

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zotheca
zotheca
@zotheca@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle Blacksky has its own AppView and a Bluesky-independent way of unlocking users who have been blocked by Bluesky, for example.
A person can host a PDS on a server of their choice, including their own, and connect to the service they prefer.

https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3m4ra7cs75s2z

https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mccvziodyc2v

https://bsky.app/profile/rude1.blacksky.team/post/3mcg5h5ef2k2z

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Grow Your Own Services 🌱
Grow Your Own Services 🌱
@homegrown@social.growyourown.services replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@zotheca @rolle

Bluesky was able to ban Blacksky's users directly on Blacksky, it seems there's still a centralised kill switch in Bluesky's control:

https://plus.flux.community/p/banning-controversy-reveals-blueskys

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zotheca
zotheca
@zotheca@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@homegrown You can't argue with outdated information.

@rolle

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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

RE: https://toot.cafe/@thereisnocat/115906352914274869

@zotheca So I've heard. But there are challenges.

https://mementomori.social/@thereisnocat@toot.cafe/115906353041503398

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zotheca
zotheca
@zotheca@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle Yes, I would say the biggest challenge is the amount of data that is transferred there, which makes it hardly suitable for a home server. A Hubzilla installation can be set up as PHP on the side. The system does not require every user to have their own relay at home.

The question is, at what number of offerings is decentralization achieved? Are Bluesky and Blacksky sufficient, or do we also need Eurosky and Northernsky, and so on? And is it necessary for decentralization that everyone can host at home...

Basically, the statement often made in the Fediverse that there is only one AppView and that Bluesky can therefore simply pull the plug is, in my view, incorrect and, for many people, more a matter of populism.

Currently, if I am not satisfied with Bluesky's moderation of applications, I can easily switch to Blacksky.

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Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
Roni Rolle Laukkarinen
@rolle@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@zotheca It's not just populism when it comes to self-hosting and independence. The amount of data in the Fediverse is huge, yet you can still host everything from a USB stick if you want to (need S3 or NAS for storage, but anyway, it's simple).

I see Bluesky as false marketing in many ways. Decentralization, by definition, should mean as much as possible. We all know what happens when Cloudflare or AWS goes down - that's not decentralization if only a handful of large services exist. So I completely disagree with the idea that "a few is enough".

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zotheca
zotheca
@zotheca@mementomori.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle But what does decentralization mean? When I look at how many instances there are at Masto.Host or here in Germany at Hetzner or Hostinger (or a few others), it seems like pseudo-decentralization. All you need to do in Germany is block three server providers and the Fediverse will likely be dead here.

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Emil Jacobs - Collectifission
Emil Jacobs - Collectifission
@collectifission@greennuclear.online replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle This neatly sums up why, every time a BS fan was talking about federation, I just didn't get it. Now I understand they were only pretending to talk about federation, or perhaps worse, talk about some twisted definition of 'federation'. That's why I simply didn't understand them. They were talking about something else entirely, while claiming "federation" at the same time.

Gaslighting by design?

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DoktorZjivago
DoktorZjivago
@doktorzjivago@mastodonsweden.se replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle Very well put. And in addition, the service itself, I think, has a serious risk of being endangered if the current American administration sees it as a threat. Also, they seem to soon run out of money. Lots of 🚩🚩🚩

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Ralph Brandi
Ralph Brandi
@thereisnocat@toot.cafe replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle I self host my own PDS, but yeah, too much depends on their centralized services. I think Blacksky is trying to set up a completely separate but federated instance, but if even they struggle to, I don’t see any way for a lone person like me to.

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John Ahlroos
John Ahlroos
@john@social.ahlroos.me replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 days ago

@rolle Nicely put.

This is the reason I went with Mastodon in 2022 and still not regretting it.

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