Discussion
Twenty five years ago today I started the #Safari and #WebKit projects at #Apple Computer.
Which means Safari is now old enough to rent itself a car. But let's not speculate about my age.
I'm still sad I can't use Safari on my Windows PC. Alas, I lost the battle to keep it there. But at least WebKit's DNA seeded or influenced most browsers we use today.
And I'm proud of that impact. Along with the wonderful team I built who made it all happen. Here's to another 25, friends.
Cheers. 🥂😊💖
@eliasp I've spoken and written about this numerous times. And the complete answer is too long for a toot.
The TL;DR is that Mozilla code (at the time) was bloated and slow. Licensing Microsoft Internet Explorer wasn't politically viable. Licensing other browsers wasn't feasible or the technology sucked for various reasons, just like Explorer.
It was truly a choice between basing our effort on KHTML and KJS or writing a browser from scratch. And I knew better than to attempt the latter.
We even have a couple of examples. The clean room browser engines that have been popping up like Arc and Servo have been going for years and years and aren't fully compliant engines yet. Standards compat is hard to catch up to esp since they're moving forward at the same time.
@bigolewannabe Yes, but the people who hired me at Apple wanted a Web browser and Web library in one year.
I knew that was impossible, but I figured they wouldn't fire me if I took 18 months. Which is exactly how long it did take before we unveiled the public Beta in January of 2023.
Only a fool would write everything from scratch with pressure like that. And I was no fool.
That's not to disparage the work by the Arc and Servo teams, but they didn't have the constraints that I did.
@bigolewannabe Yes, but the people who hired me at Apple wanted a Web browser and Web library in one year.
I knew that was impossible, but I figured they wouldn't fire me if I took 18 months. Which is exactly how long it did take before we unveiled the public Beta in January of 2003.
Only a fool would write everything from scratch with pressure like that. And I was no fool.
That's not to disparage the work by the Arc and Servo teams, but they didn't have the constraints that I did.
That exactly what I meant and yes. I'm not disparaging those teams either. Browsers engines are HARD. Doing them right takes a long time. Doing them well takes even longer. The edge cases and have edge cases.
@bigolewannabe LOL! Indeed. 🤣
I used to quote Ernie Hudson's line as Winston Zeddemore in Ghostbusters when detailing some of the egregious HTML, CSS, JavaScript and Web server behavior I've encountered from working on Netscape Navigator in the 90s and then Safari:
"I've seen shit that'll turn you white."
And, yeah, it's just that scary.
@eliasp @lisamelton @bigolewannabe That long ago already…? Man I remember the excitement on @slashdot back when this was announced. Big vendors adopting open source was not yet common, at all. It was a big deal.
@eliasp @lisamelton @bigolewannabe That long ago already…? Man I remember the excitement on @slashdot back when this was announced. Big vendors adopting open source was not yet common, at all. It was a big deal.
@mkoek
it was stealing. KDE basically got nothing back.
@eliasp @lisamelton @bigolewannabe
@iinavpov And you know this because you worked on KDE 25 years ago, right?
@lisamelton
I was a user (still am), and I was on the mailing lists, yes.
Also, then KDE had a good light fast browser, and after, it didn't.
Yes, I'm still angry about it 25 years after.
It was not a good thing you did.
@mkoek Indeed. But some nerds got wind of me hiring David Hyatt before our WWDC unveiling and thought Safari would be based on Firefox.
So, when Steve flashed a 20-foot-high slide with the words, "KHTML and KJS" on the stage, someone in the audience a dozen rows behind be shouted, "What the fuck?!?"
It. Was. Epic. 🤣
@lisamelton @eliasp @bigolewannabe @slashdot just found this blast from the past about that 😀 https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/david-hyatt-at-apple.7893/
@mkoek Oh yeah, that was one of many times that "rumor" was repeated.
TBH, I didn't think we could keep the truth quiet.
@mkoek Indeed. But some nerds got wind of me hiring David Hyatt before our WWDC unveiling and thought Safari would be based on Firefox.
So, when Steve flashed a 20-foot-high slide with the words, "KHTML and KJS" on the stage, someone in the audience a dozen rows behind be shouted, "What the fuck?!?"
It. Was. Epic. 🤣
@eliasp @lisamelton @bigolewannabe That long ago already…? Man I remember the excitement on @slashdot back when this was announced. Big vendors adopting open source was not yet common, at all. It was a big deal.
We even have a couple of examples. The clean room browser engines that have been popping up like Arc and Servo have been going for years and years and aren't fully compliant engines yet. Standards compat is hard to catch up to esp since they're moving forward at the same time.
@eliasp Also, the KHTML and KJS code did not suck. It was rather incomplete and raw, but it was well-written and something I knew could be a project my browser-inexperienced team could learn on.
It wasn't until I lured David Hyatt away from Mozilla, after he started Firefox, that we really began to change KHTML and KJS.
@lisamelton
Embrace, extend, extinguish.
@eliasp
@lisamelton
it's not because they weren't planned that the consequences didn't follow.
But I still remember the anger when it come to light you had forked an important opensource project.
@iinavpov and she was totally rightful about doing so, otherwise KDE should've chosen a different license which doesnt allow forking (which is the very fundamental idea of OpenSource).
No one is obliged to return contributions (although it might be a nice thing to do so) to the original project.
@eliasp Thank you! Yes, forking is allowed and even encouraged in some cases.
Did I want to do it in secret for 18 months? Hell no!
And I didn't want to just throw tarballs over a wall when we went public, which I had to do at first. That went against everything I learned and believed after working on Mozilla, LAME, Nautilus and other projects.
That's why I fought so hard to make WebKit a real Open Source collaboration.
And I didn't want KHTML to die. I was a KDE user, too.
@lisamelton
Yet, KHTML died. Konqueror is no more.
Open source projects are about collaborative work and community much more than the code.
I'm sorry, but when a company wants to kill/take over an open source project, this is *exactly* how you do it.
Had this not happened, there might be today another real alternative to Firefox for people caring about privacy.
In any case, it was 25 years ago. just not something to celebrate.
@eliasp
@TheEddieShow Guilty as charged! 🤓
@lisamelton Still my main browser. Thank you!
@lisamelton no one can ever take that accomplishment away from you.
I sometimes wonder if being able to complete that feat subconsciously gave you the extra boost of courage you needed for the hard work of transition. I like to think so. 
@kimlockhartga Thank you! 💖 And you're correct, even our Fascist government can't take that away from me and my team. ✊️
If that effort and its success gave me courage, I sure wish I had transitioned sooner. Instead, I waited over 10 years after retirement to begin my journey. 🤦♀️
One thing it *did* was harden my resolve and focus when I finally did transition. And I'm forever thankful for that. 🥹🏳️⚧️
@lisamelton Perhaps this was the right time all along. Much love.
@lisamelton I started using Safari last year and had Macbooks since 2012. 😄
@lisamelton Have you ever commented about your feelings around Orion? Given it's going to Windows and Linux, it feels like a parallel timeline version of Safari from earlier in Safari's life, when cross-platform was a goal.
@metaning No, I haven't commented on Orion publicly. And I don't intend to. They don't need a distraction from me.
I don't meddle with Web browsers anymore. I'm a game developer now.
@lisamelton ...and from the day it was released I have not stopped using it. There simply is no better browser for me and the way I use my system(s).
Thank you, Lisa!
You are much loved and appreciated for this gift to us all (and many other things)! ❤️
@jgobble Awwww, thanks for sticking with it after all this time. 😊🥰💖
@lisamelton I was a Safari for Windows user! Until I couldn't be, of course.
(My main machine was a Mac, but we had a couple of windows boxen for specific tasks, you know how it was.)
@moira Thank you for being a Safari for Windows user! 💖
@lisamelton Happy Anniversary! 
@lisamelton happy anniversary, truly a story for the ages, thank you for it all and enjoy all the accolades! 💖
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@lisamelton what were the reasons back then to use KDE's KHTML as the base? Were there no other open alternatives around yet? My timeline might be skewed, but I believe Netscape was already open source at this point.
Did it have some outstanding qualities that made it an obvious choice?
Was it licensing-wise the easier choice?