Discussion
A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
/r/fediverse users responded:
"this is cancer"
"you are a horrible person"
???
Can you please help me with a genuine question: what would make the #Fediverse a more welcoming place?
Yes, humans are just grumpy sometimes. But a real solution can't just be more HOA members reading the rules at the door.
What do YOU think would make a difference here?
@benpate A server that runs directly on Cloudflare sounds amazing to me. I’m currently running this instance through a Cloudflare tunnel (using GoToSocial on my NAS at home).
Me too. Inadvertently.
I’m on the Digital Ocean app platform, that automaticallly hosts everything behind CloudFlare.
I can understand people wanting to avoid being locked in to a specific platform. But to me, the coolest thing about this project is that it shows that you can host something completely “serverless” with Javascript.
Once we have that, how long is it until someone makes an open source CloudFlare-compatible environment?
Where will the haters be then?
Hi @benpate,
somehow I don't buy embracing a #monopoly goes well with 'diverse' an in #fediverse. But that's just my take.
On the surface, this makes a lot of sense.
But consider: “distributed” doesn’t mean “distributed, but only on small ISPs”
I say Fedi everywhere - even on the “bad” platforms. If it gives people the chance to learn about the Fediverse, it’s a win.
-
More importantly: you’re welcome to disagree, ignore my posts, or even block me if you don’t agree with my choices.
But the haters do damage to the Fediverse when they escalate from blocks to attacks and insults.
this is really the heart of the problem: a small number of very loud people see themselves as judges of what the "fediverse" means, or "federated" or "diverse". and i don't accept their authority.
and i do think the loudest are destroying the fediverse. i worry that when they're done, the fediverse will be perfectly in agreement on all "principles" and there will be like 23 people on it.
it was pointed out elsewhere on this thread that many of the loudest see themselves as refugees from corporate social media, and don't want to see the fediverse become like that. i get that—it's literally why i'm here. but i still don't think the fediverse needs their stewardship!
Yeah, you’re spot on. And identifying as victim/refugees probably helps fuel their behavior.
I think we’ve all bumped into them here. And hey, haters get to have opinions, too.
I just try to identify them quickly, then mute or block liberally.
How do you handle them? Any suggestions?
@benpate @mro i have the advantage of running my own server software (#ktistec) so i have lots of levers. right now it comes down to mostly 1) liberal blocking and 2) effective "algorithmic" feeds (that just means flexible hashtag, mention, keyword filtering and they're still work in progress). so far i haven't had to resort to blocking instances.
it's a good question though. like i said, i came here as a refugee myself and my goal is to build my own "safe space" on the fediverse. i just don't think anyone should be the arbiter of anyone else's definition of "safe space".
I've been checking out your project. It looks fantastic! I especially like the idea of a "small server for a small group." It's a perfect use case for this tech :)
Keep up the good work. And, if you come up with any really great ways to handle the trolls, please share them with the rest of us?
Hi @benpate
I totally agree to keep manners to keep controversial arguments enjoyable.
No room for hate.
You may hear me mad about something as soon as I understand what’s the issue 😅
The compulsion of some #mastodon #fediverse people to make negative comments and scolds about anything they can is awful and it runs new people away
I think there needs to be explicit encouragement in mastodon and the overall fediverse to be kind, helpful, welcoming, friendly, nonjudgmental, and to accept that other people can make their own choices on the fediverse and a negative comment isn't necessary or nice
Being kind and friendly and getting to know different people feels good friends
Shouldn't social networks be fun and... social ?
@frxe @benpate IMO the uber-scolds in the Mastodon Imperial Core have been losing clout as the network continues to grow around them.
however, it's still very important that people who love fedi (as opposed to The Mastodon Network™) continue working toward a few goals:
1. decrease median server size so as to de-emphasize fediblock drama
2. continue attracting cool misfits who aren't obsessed with purity spirals and moral righteousness
3. decrease the % of ActivityPub users on Mastodon.
deutrino I strongly believe we need more interest-based websites on the network. so many of the issues, from where I sit, come from the idea that the network is the attraction, but then you have no real reason for people to choose one site vs another, and no real sense of community, and no sense of responsibility to anything.
Everyone here already ends up a little mercenary, and you can’t tell anyone new why they should sign up, nor where. And I blame Mastodon’s designers for this, with their insistence on de-centering the Local feed and not making theming easy. they not only centre the network, but they frame the local website as a generic dumb terminal for accessing “Mastodon”.
@kichae IMO Mastodon is one of the biggest influences stunting the development of the fediverse as a whole.
deutrino I strongly believe we need more interest-based websites on the network. so many of the issues, from where I sit, come from the idea that the network is the attraction, but then you have no real reason for people to choose one site vs another, and no real sense of community, and no sense of responsibility to anything.
Everyone here already ends up a little mercenary, and you can’t tell anyone new why they should sign up, nor where. And I blame Mastodon’s designers for this, with their insistence on de-centering the Local feed and not making theming easy. they not only centre the network, but they frame the local website as a generic dumb terminal for accessing “Mastodon”.
@frxe @benpate beyond that... I instance-block the most toxic servers on my various accounts and my timelines are much better for it. especially once I became willing to throw a few babies out with the bathwater, as there are one or two sizable one where blocking results in collateral damage.
that doesn't help noobs, though, so maybe a shared blocklist for servers which don't necessarily break rules but have toxic admin and/or users is in order. good luck getting mass adoption though.
@frxe it's mostly just accumulated experience from nearly 10 years of being here and reading drama threads and learning which servers tend to export drama, plus skimming their public timeline to get a sense of the average tone of posters there (which puts edgelord instances like poast in the exact same shitcan) plus some other heuristics I'll DM you about.
@frxe oh, I also check their list of instance blocks if public and see if there are a bunch of blocks for stupid reasons, this does sometimes correlate with bad behavior though not always.
@benpate i can think of worse companies to host with tbh. Funnily enough these same people probably don't get that a significant portion of the fediverse is actually behind cloudflare's CDNs.
I think these "do as I say" holier than thou types are the bane of the decentralised web. Like, if I wanted to drive people away from open social projects, that's exactly how I'd do it: hire a small group of people to consistently be assholes to other's. It's like 101 from the CIA field guide to sabotage 🚩
Yeah, I'm noticing that more and more. Nothing is able to pass the purity tests. Nobody is good enough. So, doing ANYTHING means we're going to berate you for it.
I try to avoid going straight to the conspiracy theories, but it makes a lot of sense. No better way to discredit something than "false flag"
Then those brave, anonymous redditors are welcome to build their own versions of autonomy.
But it's arrogant to assume that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
What's worse for the Fediverse? A niche project that uses tech that a few people don't like? Or a reputation as an unwelcoming place where people will insult your work for not agreeing with their *specific* ideologies?
Right. A lot of people are in fedi to escape surveillance capitalism, and (justifiably IMHO) see Cloudflare as a surveillance capitalism company. And a lot of people in fedi are anti-fascist, and so don't like Cloudflare funding projects like Ladybird or Omarchy. And a lot of people see LLMs -- or more generally "AI" as a political project -- as reinforcing fascism and having huge ethical issues.
The strong pushback is antibodies. Cloudflare dropped wildebeest at least in part because there were blocklists going around that defederated all wildebeest instances. Gab gave up on federation because the pushback was so strong; Truth Social didn't even try.
True, it's very hit-or-miss just what sparks the antibodies. And, opinions differ: plenty of people here think the path to fedi's success is to be friendly to surveillance capitalism companies, or don't think of Ladybird and Omarchy as fascist aligned, or don't think it matters that Cloudflare is funding them. It' complex! But, these are the kinds of complexities people have to deal with if they want to navigate fedi.
So @benpate and @scottjenson , I don't think you're going to change that culture -- and you should really think about what message you're sending when you say you want to try.
@jdp23 @benpate @scottjenson @rakoo not all antibody or immune systems work correctly, sometimes those drive things that are good from your system.
I'm not wanting to debate the pros/cons of any company, system, etc. but instead there is a a pattern here across the history of the fediverse where people try to do something and get harassed of the network, rather than gently being called in. I'm sure you know as much as anyone else just what the black community encountered here, I think this is all a similar pattern of behaviour of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints.
That could be an immune system, but it could also be malfunctioning at the same time, creating situations that don't benefit the Fediverse
No, I don't think the pattern of fedi's resistance to projects they see as bringing fascism to the fediverse is at all analogous to the racist harassment that Black people here face.
I do agree that the way that it's easy for people who unintentionally triggering the antibodies get scorched isn't necessarily good. (I don't consider a few rude comments on reddit as scorching, but there certainly have been other incidents with more abuse.). I even have a suggested approach for making progress! High-profile fedi influencers need to do a much better job about informing people who are thinking of developing for fedi about what's likely to trigger the antibodies.
With consent (a common source of triggering antibodies) I even put in the time to host a fediforum session and write up a pretty good document (if I do say so myself) outlining what needs to be done, with a goal of making it easier for people with a much bigger megaphone than me to let everybody know that hey, these are the norms here, it can be confusing -- and make sure to get feedback. I and o thers certainly used that to defuse several potential blowups (which you haven 't heard about becuase they didn't blow up). That said, fedi influencers are gonna do what they're gonna do, so for the most part I haven't noticed a lot of change (although kudos to the Mastodon project, which has made a lot of progress taking consent into account on new functionality).
Anyhow even though nobody wants to hear it, the same approach applies here. Fedi influencers need to talk about fedi's history of resistance to fasciam, and the strong opposition to "AI" in many corners here, and make sure people considering writing fedi software know they need to take this into account. And it's not always obvious, so step 1 is to ask!
Yes, this is going to make fedi development a lot more difficult and/or undesirable to many developers. But the resistance to fascism and "AI" isn't going to go away, so the alternative is antibodies flaring.
@jdp23 I hear you there and I've been trying to get a similar document written for the CG but there's been little to no interest in it.
Whilst the describe things are different scales, not all reactions are the same strength. I'd probably call it a fediverse histamine system rather than an immune system, though those two systems are linked in the body they're still distinct. And as you well know I've a lot of experience with the histamine system going awry and triggering when it maybe shouldn't.
@thisismissem histamines is a good framing, quite possibly better. And whether it's histamines or antibodies, certainly times when it's gone awry, triggering more intensely than needed or in some cases when maybe it shouldn't. That said, part of the reason why (more obvious with consent-related stuff) is just because this response keeps getting triggered again and again and frustration leads to people reacting very sharply -- even though it's not newcomers fault that they've just walked into a situation with all this past history and nobody told them to be careful.
So yeah, definitely worth thinking about how to encouraged better-calibrated responses ... but also cutting down on the triggering would be good!
I've been trying to get a similar document written for the CG but there's been little to no interest in it.
Why am I not surprised to hear this?
to: @thisismissem
cc: @jdp23
re: "little to no interest"
has such a CG document been proposed anywhere? i'm fairly sure we can get one written if it comes to it
I'd love to read the document you made. Is it available somewhere publicly?
Yep! https://privacy.thenexus.today/consent-for-fediverse-developers/
And it gets shared around fedi every time there's a blowup, most recently with tags.pub 🤣
Hey, thanks for sending this. I've read it through a couple of times
I understand that marking a post"public" does not mean that others have consent to use it. That's why we have consent-respecting quote-posts
It would help your doc to define the positive.. what existing flags DO represent consent? Or, do we need new ones?
Using tags.pub as an example, how SHOULD someone ask to boost a post? Should we build "consent-respecting boosts" too?
I listed the flags I know about in the "Honor existing opt-in and opt-out mechanisms", and talked about new ones in "Include an additional opt-in mechanism for your service if it's not just a search engine or profile discovery (or something very close to them)".
Easier saiud than done, of course. In general I think there's a big missing piece of consent-related tools. Bridgy Fed wound up basically rolling their own mechanism, but even after however many years it's been I'll bet there are a lot of people who would opt in if they knew about it ... but don't know about it, so haven't.
The tags.pub situation is interesting, and a great example of how it's not always obvious what's likely to cause a blowup -- there have been other hashtag aggregators that haven't led to the same response. The issue that sparked the blowup was related to relays (I've blissfully forgotten the details) and then there was an implementation glitch leading to some stuff appearing when it shouldn't have and on top of that Evan said "well it allows for opt-out which is consent" which is like throwing gasoline on the fire. (On my to-do list is to update the "DON'T say the things that developers who ignore consent typically say" section to include that.). On top of that, Evan previously argued against opt-in for Bridgy Fed, and was very pro-Meta, so it was already a situation where there wasn't a lot of trust. So it's hard to separate all that out.
Anyhow yes I think there should be the ability to restrict who can boost posts -- I believe GoToSocial's intereaction controls "canAnnounce" covers this, and hopefully it's in the FEP as well. Since this isn't widely supporte yet today, well, at the individual level I think it's generally accepted that it's okay to boost most posts although there are situations where it's better to ask (like if somebody's posting something relatively personal and it's not clear they want it broadcast to the world). For something like tags.pub, it's not obvious, which is why the doc has a section on "Get broad feedback before launching – and listen to it"
@scottjenson Just to clarify, are you agreeing with that the pattern of pushing back against projects that see as fascist is similar to the harassment that greeted Black people coming to fedi?
@jdp23 To say they are "the same" is a gross over simplification. But I have talked to a few black ex-fediverse users and they made it clear that the 'helpful feedback" crowd around CWs was instrumental in them leaving.
@scottjenson sure -- I talked about that in "Dogpiling, weaponized content warning discourse, and a fig leaf for mundane white supremacy". But what does that have to do with people pushing back against projects that they see as fascist?
@jdp23 It's all just a matter of degree. I'm not against punching nazis. It's just that IMHO, FAR too many people are getting punched.
@scottjenson I see. Sorry to keep going on this, but you talked elsewhere in the thread about people misunderstanding what you were saying and not asking clarifying questions ... so I just want to make sure that I now understand your position.
It sounds to me like you agree with @thisismissem's statement that " this is all a similar pattern of behaviour of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints" -- emphasis on "similar" mine, because as you said "the same" is a gross oversmplification.
And from the last post it sounds to me that you also think people rudely pushing back on Reddit against a projectsthey see as fascist-friendly is related to the CW-related racist harassment that was instrumental in so many Black people leaving the fediverse, it's just a matter of degree.
Is that accurate?
@jdp23 @thisismissem
I feel like I'm walking on egg shells. I'm just trying to make a simple point:
* People have left the fediverse because of over-zealous behavior
* I'd like there to be less of that so good people stick around.
That's it. Just to be clear: this does not mean I want to protect fascists. Those are not good people.
If you want the developer who was the target of the snarky comments on Reddit to stick around, consider reaching out to her and giving some context as I did. If you'd like there to be less of that in general I've already said what I think will help elsewhere in the thread so won't bother to repeat it here.
And if you'd like to make progress on the harassment here in general, please use your influence as Strategy Advisor to the Mastodon team to get them to announce ASAP that they're going to prioritize implementation of long-overdue anti-harassment technology like reply controls -- something @inquiline and others have highlighted repeatedly plug a big gap -- and local-only posts ... and then to prioritize it and get it out quickly. Because that's something that could have a big immediate impact, and when people see you and the team not prioritizing that they assume you don't see it as a priority.
On your point elsewhere about the pattern of people misunderstanding you and overreacting rather than asking clarifying questions ... I asked several questions, and you didn't directly answer any of them -- even when I directly asked "am I understanding correctly?"
In terms of walking on eggshells, it probably feels that way because if you say that yes, you do think of them as similar, it could result i the same kind of blowup as a previous time you made a similar analogy. So, your feelings are warranted!
@jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
>> if you'd like to make progress on the harassment here in general, please use your influence as Strategy Advisor to the Mastodon team to get them to announce ASAP that they're going to prioritize implementation of long-overdue anti-harassment technology like reply controls
Yes please, yesplease, yspls!! The lack of this feature is why I've had to stop recommending people join Mdon if they're likely targets--which hurts this community
Can say more if asked!
@inquiline @jdp23 @scottjenson Mastodon already announced FediMod FIRES integration coming: https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2026/04/sovereign-tech-agency-funding/
I'm sure once they can get someone to fund reply controls they might implement that too because it's a very obvious tooling gap in safety on the platform.
The FIRES integration is very good news, I was very happy to see the funding from Sovereign Tech Agency!
But even though there isn't explicit funding for reply controls or local-only posts yet, they really need to be prioritized. I too have stopped recommending Mastodon to people because of the harassment and while it's not like these are magic bullets they'd make a big difference and signal that it's a priority.
@mellifluousbox I guess I really should be tagging you on this.
@jdp23 @inquiline @scottjenson I think what we should proactively do as a community is to call people into our community norms, rather than call them out. We do a lot more of the latter, sometimes that can seem very performative too. (Also under no circumstances am I saying we owe for-profit closed-source projects free labour, no, absolutely not)
But we can definitely call in when the person is a new actor misstepping vs calling out when it's someone who repeatedly missteps. Give people a chance to learn the expected community behaviours that are desired, because folks building new things aren't necessarily long-term mastodon users with a decade of fediverse lore in their pockets.
Some people may not realise certain companies or software tools have a bad reputation/image within this community
Agreed in general. If you look at my reddit post, I very much phrased it as a call in -- https://www.reddit.com/r/fediverse/comments/1v2mt69/i_built_a_full_fediverse_service_that_runs_100_on/. And similarly I called in both you and Scott on what I saw as an unfortunate analogy between a couple of rude posts on Reddit and the racist harassment the drove Black people away, rather than trying to blow it up into some kind of big firestorm. And my suggestions to Ben also included
And when it's an unintentional mistake (whcih it often is), reach out to the people involved to give them the context and try to get it resolved quietly -- or at least help them understand why it blew up -- rather than throwing gas on the flames.
That said there are times when call-outs are warranted. And in general even in situations where a call-in would probably have worked out better, it's not useful to complain about the lack of civility of the people making the call-out.
@jdp23 @inquiline @scottjenson fwiw, I was trying to articular that I was observing a pattern of behaviour much bigger than a few rude reddit posts, and that if that's left unchecked as it has been it can create an unduly negative environment, hence me favouring calling people in rather than piling on.
I probably mis-articulated things because I've been dealing with neurological symptoms of my chronic illness this week.
I get it! These things are all fraught, eggshells are always appropriate, and it's very easy to type something infelicitous. The thing to do in that case (once it's pointed out) is say oops, i didn't phrase it well and didn't mean to imply X, what I was trying to highlight is Y.
What I was reacting to was both the analogy at such drastically different scale and "a similar pattern of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints". The anti-Black harassment isn't about viewpoints it was about identity, and in general it's not because people are judging quickly, it's because they're racist.
@jdp23 @inquiline @scottjenson "viewpoints" here was referring to when black folks were building tools for their communities and white folks were judging them harshly for it, iirc. Not people being racist in the everyday sense but in the explicit harms you called out in your article series (at least I'm pretty sure that's the connection my brain was trying to make)
Obviously I didn't state what I meant clearly enough, as mentioned extremely limited bandwidth this week due to my chronic illness causing neurological issues, no ill intent.
Yes.
"Not all antibody or immune systems work correctly" is the insight of the evening. This hits the issue right on the head.
2/
So no, I don't think *I* am going to change any culture. That's going to happen on its own.
But, I hope we can make tools that 1) amplify positive voices, and 2) demonstrate to the haters through *actions* (not another lecture from the HOA) that trolling doesn't work here.
I don't know what that looks like right now, but it's worth talking to people on the front lines to see what's worked/failed in the past.
As to the "message I'm trying to send" it has nothing to do with supporting fascists it's more:
* people are getting hurt
* it's helpful to talk about it
Do I expect I will change the culture? Of course not, but we can at least talk about it. We can even disagree. But can we at least *start* with the assumption that everyone here is trying to build a great fediverse? Assume that we're all acting in good faith? We can disagree but that doesn't make us evil.
There's two separate issues:
1. Is {CloudFlare or AI} a {good or bad} thing that we {should or shouldn't} use?
2. How to we treat people who disagree with us on point 1?
In any group, there will be disagreements. How we handle those determines if we're functioning adults or not.
Block people? Sure.
Block instances? Sure.
Berate people who build stuff? Nope.
@benpate Despite the complaint that launched the conversation, there’s like 6 or 7 people disagreeing here and defying every expectation of ad hominem and escalation. Pretty cool to get this deep into a thread and still be essentially civil.
I think some folks are here in fedi to create a community of shared values. They’re not here to keep to themselves and live-and-let-live. For folks who want to create that community, pushing back on antithetical behaviour is important, not optional.
If I just block/mute and move on, I leave changing the world to someone else. I communicate nothing and accomplish nothing. I just selfishly curate my own bubble. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with that. We are all doing that sometimes.
People pushing back against values they oppose are trying, in some small way, to create/defend a social environment that doesn’t just please them, but finds and welcomes likeminded people.
It’s true: nearly everything pisses off somebody. I’m sure I’ve been blocked, muted, and my whole instance has been defederated sometimes for reasons lost to time. But I am surrounded by a bunch of awesome, likeminded people that I really treasure. That’s what the scolding has accomplished. Folks who dislike the scolding nature, though, will eventually settle into a different layer of the fediverse that operates more to their liking. I think that’s a good outcome and the beauty of the whole thing.
@thisismissem Nice. Thanks for that context!
@benpate @jdp23 @scottjenson @rakoo
You can treat people however you want. But I don't think you're going to have a lot of success convincing people who see Cloudflare as pro-fascist saying they should treat fascist supporters more politiely. They're just going to read your third line as
"Breate people trying to bring fascism into fedi? Nope"
EDIT: rephrased my paraphrase
Let's pretend CloudFlare was full-on, 100% "Hitler-loving Nazis"
Arguing with them online is STILL not the answer. Nazis LOVE that stuff.
And you're not helping by trashing someone with one foot in the door, who doesn't know just how bad they are. You're just pushing them closer to the Nazis.
Vitriolic voices, even for a just cause, are not helping the Fediverse. So I think we could build trust systems that take megaphones away from the trolls.
The way we deliver a message can be more important than the words themselves.
In cult-deprogramming, when someone is teetering on the edge of the cult, getting shunned by their community only pushes them deeper into the cult.
This negative online behavior radicalizes people AWAY from the "shun-ers" and into the arms of the cult. So if you want to keep someone away from Nazis, don't yell at them for asking about swastikas.
@benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Is your actual goal here to keep fascists out? If not, what is your actual goal here?
My actual goal here is to help grow the Fediverse, in a positive, sustainable way. I believe it should be an inclusive place for everyone, which means a place without purity tests.
So go punch Nazis.
Kick them where their nuts should be.
But HOW you punch Nazis is important.
People are watching, and deciding if they want to participate in this community based on how we behave.
And we could be more welcoming than we are today.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
Also I think if you don't have the basic purity test of don't support Nazi things, then how do you keep Nazis out?
And honestly if people see us being mean to Nazis, I feel it's going to make them want to join us more, not less.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I think it's much better if the Fediverse grows slowly but only has good people joining.
Besides its not like people are lacking in choice for social media networks. This is the only one free of Nazis. Let's keep it that way. If that means it's a bit unwelcoming to people who side with Nazis, so be it.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Ben Pate, have you read Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance?
Let's recap, just in case any adults are still watching this conversation.
I saw a bunch of goons attacking a kid on Reddit for building Fediverse software on a platform they don't like.
Mentioned it here and asked "what would make the Fediverse a more welcoming place?"
Fast forward to people with no nuance calling me "pro-Nazi." Thank you, kids, for demonstrating the problem I'm trying to avoid.
@davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I'm happy to talk to anyone here on the Fediverse, and to talk in good faith about how we make this better.
When people prove that they can't behave well, the adult response is to block liberally and move on. There's no debate to be won with people who can only think in black and white.
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem if you're a fascist sympathizer or "centrist" or pushing LLM use I want you to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome being here.
Despite your bullshit handwaving to try to focus on tone over substance, people are absolutely capable of discriminating between "fuck off fascist" and "being unwelcoming".
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Ok the most egregious thing here, "how you punch nazis is important" yes, but the only questions are "are you doing it enough" and "are you doing it hard enough" and "are you injuring yourself while doing it".
"Are you punching nazis in a polite enough way" is somewhere between missing the point and nazi apologia.
@kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem And let people see you punching the Nazis, over and over again. Nothing is more welcoming to ordinary people than seeing Nazis get punched. Nazis need to know they're going to get punched for the rest of us to feel safe.
@stevendbrewer @kevingranade @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Great song from a Native fronted punk band. Gregg Deal is part of the Pyramid Lake Paiute nation. People love seeing Nazi teeth fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM0TnyGELuI
That's great, thanks for sharing! "Violence is the only language they speak, it's okay to punch Nazi teeth!"
@kevingranade @benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem it's just the apologetics
c.f. Dr King on white moderates as the problem
@davidgerard @benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem actually yes the "missing the point" out is giving people too much credit / plausible deniability my bad.
That's really the core difference of opinion. The "Big Fedi" view is that
Everyone on the planet should have an account on the fediverse (even Nazis, racists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people, and other marginalized communities). It will make the internet better and the world better (if Nazis et al are on the fediverse, as opposed to trying to keep them off)
From that perspective, "purity tests" like "is somebody trying to bring fascist technology here" are certainly a barrier. The same is true with other "purity tests" like whethre somebody is willing to use the right pronouns, does somebody advocate harssment of trans people, etc etc etc. As the Big Fedi view says
"It’s more important to bring good people to the fediverse than to keep (Nazis, facists, transphobes, white supremacists, hate groups who target people of color, LGBTQIA2S+ people and other marginalized communities) bad people off it. There may be some bad people, too, but we’ll (somehow come up with a way to) manage them (even though today's fediverse is unsafe by design and unsafe by default and most instances can't manage the bad people who are there today, so it's likely to get a lot worse rather than better as things get bigger)"
But not everybody sees it that way. A lot of people -- including me -- don't want fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots etc here, even if that leads to a smaller fedi in the short term. In fact, since there are so many other social networks that already welcome fascists, racists, anti-LGBTQIA2S+ bigots, etc, I'd argue that the best approach to growing fedi sustainably is to be an alternative -- because there aren't a lot of others.
But okay, you're far from the only person with the "Big Fedi" view.i My point in this thread is that the rest of us aren't going to shut up about it. It's not going to be a welcoming place to people advocating for fascist technology and surveillance capitalism -- even if they don't realize what they're doing.
So if you want to grow fedi in a positive sustainable way, you're wasting your time trying to convince people here to be more welcoming to technology they see as problematic, whether it's Cloudflare, LLMs, or Meta.
Instead -- and whether or not you personally think fedi should resist fascism (etc), or however you personally think is the best way to keep the fascists (etc) out
spread the word that there are a lot of people here who do want to keep fascists (etc) out of fedi,
try to set expectations for developers leveraging surveillance captitalism technology that they're likely to be greeted harshly
encourage developers to keep fedi's long-standing cultural norms in mind and get feedback on what they're doing before just showing up
EDIT: whoops, I posted this before I saw @davidgerard''s response here, with some very good points including this:
"To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms."
@jdp23 What people seem to miss with their "everyone should participate" views is that many people just aren't willing to participate under these conditions.
So it *is* one or another, if they don't exclude one side the other will exclude itself. They won't have everyone. But they can feel self-righteous that it isn't their fault. The space is welcoming, people that don't feel welcome are just wrong!
Of course, the people willing to pay lip service to this "open for all" idea and secretly bully others into leaving will thrive. The people most vulnerable are the first ones to leave. Not all uncompromising positions are equal.
@eldaking yep, totally agree. That's why I highlight what "everyone" means in practice.
@jdp23 @davidgerard@circumstances.run @benpate @rakoo @scottjenson aside: I'm hoping FediMod FIRES & its protocol and adoption can help plug this gap: it already supports moderation advisory and recommendations targeting individual accounts
Yes, FIRES is an excellent example of this.
It looks like there's a lot more documentation on the site now, too. Thank you for that :)
What's the best way for me to try connecting to a FIRES server today?
@jdp23 the thing that always concerns me about big fedi is the need to connect everyone on the one network to rule them all. Which to me is risky.
"“There are 8 billion humans, and we should aim to serve every single one….We can’t exactly hold up the Fediverse as a viable alternative when we leave so many people behind.”
— Ben Pate at Fedicon August 02 2025"
Enabling connection online, yes. Making networks accessible to everyone absolutely. Not on one network.
https://dotart.blog/cobbles/reflections-on-fedicon-and-foss-guilt-by-association
@jdp23 I prefer the idea of archipelagoes to be honest.
@onepict yes! archipelagos FTW! @noracodes's post really changed how I thought of the possibilities here, and it's great to see the work Oliphant and Bonfire (which now has an archipelego mode!) are doing to move things in that direction
@siliconsjang I replied to you on Reddit and mentioned that there's been a lot of discussion here on fedi, and talked about some of the context. Here's a thread with a bunch of discussion and some more context. it really is a problem that there's no way for people who haven't been tracking all this stuff for years o know all of this!
Here's my Reddit post for those who arent't tracking it: https://www.reddit.com/r/fediverse/comments/1v2mt69/i_built_a_full_fediverse_service_that_runs_100_on/
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
> fedi's long-standing cultural norms
i reject your claim that you (or anyone, honestly) have any authority in this area. and that's really the core issue in this thread. regardless of ideology, some people on the fediverse feel like they have authority to set the standards of the fediverse. they are very loud about it. many are even hostile.
what's really annoying about this thread is that no one here wants fascists on the fediverse. you've all said exactly that. this thread isn't about fascism. it's about bullying.
Oh come on. I'm not saying I have have the authority to set the standards on the fediverse.
But I absolutely am qualified to discuss the tensions around the Big Fedi view -- and the analogies of the reactions to Cloudflare and to Meta. Maybe you don't agree with my perspective, but you'll have to make the case if you want to convince others.
no one here wants fascists on the fediverse
True. But there's disagreement on whether or not we want surveillance capitalism companies that support fascism on the fediverse, whether it's Cloudflare or Meta. And, there's disagreeement about the primary goal -- @benpate was quite explicity that his goal was to grow the fediverse -- and whether "purity tests" are good or not.
What's your perspective on these?
Should people in fedi welcome surveillance capitalism and pro-fascist technologies?
Do you think the primary goal should be to grow fedi, or is minimizing the influence of fascists on fedi more important?
@scottjenson
@toddsundsted @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
@rakoo okay, i follow all of this. if possible, help me understand what "small fedi" looks like from the inside for others. i literally built my own server so that i could build exactly the windows and walls i wanted. i understand myself and my own needs. i would like to understand others'.
@toddsundsted @rakoo @jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard@circumstances.run related, if you've not read Jaz's there's one fediverse, there's a million fediverses, then it's well worth a read on this topic too
@jdp23 @benpate @scottjenson @toddsundsted @davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo
I'd argue that Jon, and people like Darius and Erin (not in thread) are in fact uniquely qualified for talking about this topic, as I know they've quite literally spent years researching and writing about these topics.
@thisismissem maybe that is true. I’ll take you at your word. I read the thread again to make sure I wasn’t off the page somewhere, and that isn’t obvious to me. 🤷
@toddsundsted I think it helps if you know people's priors in this thread, myself and Jon used to sit on the same board together doing trust & safety; and Ben and Scott are both voices I've known from various conferences where we've spoken on a wide range of topics together — we can have differing perspectives but broadly agree or at least understand where each other is coming from and then call-in each other when we misstep; it's not like a flamewar argument discussion thread, there's a lot of prior art and we all care (or cared) deeply about the fediverse and open social web.
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem
fascism does not seem to be a daily problem on the fediverse. jerks are a daily problem. since fascists are a subset of jerks, tbh i'd rather cast the net wide and ask for fewer jerks.
I'm all for fewer jerks in general, but I was asking specifically about pro-fascist technologies and the priority between growing fedi and minimizing the influence of fascists. I'm curious what you think!
@jdp23 @benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @thisismissem you present false dichotomies. present honest questions and we can have a discussion.
@jdp23 @benpate @rakoo @thisismissem these guys don't believe nazis actually exist or will affect their lives
@benpate @davidgerard @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem Not every social space needs to be for every person. I don't barge into Catholic churches and demand they welcome me (even though I'm sure several of them actually would be quite welcoming), I simply don't go. "Are you a nazi?" isn't a purity test, it's a decency test, and unless you let every single stranger into your house, I don't want to hear anything about "welcome everybody". Some people are not, in fact, welcome.
@theorangetheme @davidgerard@circumstances.run @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem
I agree with your entire post. And, I don't think I ever said "welcome everybody." If I did, it was a mistake and I'm sorry.
Definitely NOT everybody. There are some red lines that people can't cross. So no, "are you a Nazi" isn't a purity test.
But let's not pretend that the Fediverse doesn't have purity tests.
You said you want it to be "inclusive place for everyone". So, one possible followon is to think about how to rephrase that more in line with what you really mean.
As for purity tests ... this is a term that right-wingers and centrists routinely use to attack any attempt by progressives and leftists who critique politicians for taking anti-trans positions, or voting for anti-immigrant or anti-Black bills, or not opposing genocide, etc etc etc. So really the best thing is not to use this term. But if you are going to use it, "no Nazis" absolutely is a purity test -- and so is "no transphobes". So yes the Fediverse has them, but that's not a bad thing.
@benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem I'm not really interested in litigating the broader fediverse. I know what I will and will not accept, and I act accordingly with the tools I have. This gives me the most agency and is also the most feasible solution to dealing with people online I don't like.
This seems perfectly reasonable :)
I'm a tool maker. I'm taking a hard look at "the tools we have" and wondering why they're still failing.
Technology will never change human nature or the cultures we develop.
But maybe we can make tools that fit human nature better, that foster more intelligent discourse, and that let communities find each other without descending into extremism.
Any ideas? What tools would work better?
I don't think this is fundamentally a technology problem. Tools can help, but they're not the place to start.
I think a better starting place is
you and other influential fedi people to be more outspoken that fedi is a place where a lot of people -- including you -- are opposed to fascism and surveillance capitalism and care a lot about LGBTQIA2S+ people and consent.
influential fedi devs and the CG should prioritize making new develoeprs aware that these norms are important and it's easy to run afoul of them, and develop material to help new developers learn te risks. (The nobot flag @julian and I were just talking about in another thread is another one of these footguns waiting to happen.)
When stuff like this comes up, ground yourselves in these principles rather than focusing on civility. And when it's an unintentional mistake (whcih it often is), reach out to the people involved to give them the context and try to get it resolved quietly -- or at least help them understand why it blew up -- rather than throwing gas on the flames.
As @stevendbrewer says, let people see you punching the Nazis, because people really like that -- and it doesn't happen that much on most social networks.
https://wandering.shop/@stevendbrewer/116971019179558719
@benpate @rakoo @jdp23 @scottjenson @thisismissem I think if you want, as you say, to create a welcoming environment for everyone and specifically including literally fucking Nazis, then that's a red flag for anyone I would want to see here. I think less of you that it isn't a red flag for you.
Another term for "purity test" is "having the slightest standards". I value having literally fucking Nazis excluded, and to *feel* excluded. Even at the price of other people knowing that discomfort and unpleasantness exist in the world.
I suspect you don't understand that fascists are real and a problem, and you think logic and reason is the way to deal with them should any show up. This is not the world the rest of us live in.
To get back to the start of the thread, you do understand that Cloudflare are funding straight up fascist projects - I urge you to read the shit DHH is posting these days before making a squeak claiming otherwise - and that's enough reason why objecting loud and often and widely fediblocking Cloudflare's fedi service is a social good? Remembering that Cloudflare's previous greatest hit was protecting KiwiFarms.
Is that the right analogy here? For people who see Cloudflare and "AI" as fascism, it's more that somebody showed up and said "look, I'm bringing swastikas to fedi!"
I agree that there are better and worse ways to send the message. But I don't think the goal of people pushing back bringing fascism to fedi is to change minds. It's to keep fascism and fascist-related projects out of fedi.
That is a fair point. And "trolling" was just my shorthand for "behaving badly online." I can pick better words :)
The Redditors involved weren't trolling. They genuinely believe they're the good guys, even as they push people away from the Fediverse.
@benpate @jdp23 @rakoo I think this is getting at the heart of the issue. There are lots of what we'll call edge cases where someone mentions Cloudflare and honestly doesn't know their history. They then get clobbered by four or five reply guys calling them out on supporting fascists. It's overkill.
For my part, the number of times that people have massively misunderstood what I was saying and instead of asking a clarifying question, proceeded to completely overreact has happened quite often. It's exhausting.
This isn't about "allowing Nazis" it's about seeing them hiding behind dust bunnies everywhere.
@scottjenson @benpate @jdp23 @rakoo my primary preferred solution is to keep the ActivityPub network growing, preferably on software other than Mastodon, to dilute the influence of the toxic early Mastodon adopters as well as diluting Mastodon's outsize influence on fedi standards.
I am aware that this doesn't really deal with the problem of them scaring off the noobs.
… and you’ve been on the front lines of it, Emelia. It’s more than just a technical issue, but what is your recommendation for how to deal with it?
Blocklists feel like a good start, but not nearly enough.
Culture change is hard. Sooooo many people got here "first" and think their claim is the only correct one. Has always been thus ...
One thing I can think of is remind people that r/fediverse is not exactly the place where "the fediverse" is developed, managed, or happening.
Then follow this dev and see what is up! I care much more that the software and the instance are acting like decent neighbours than I do about the infra its hosted on.
Culture change is hard. Sooooo many people got here "first" and think their claim is the only correct one. Has always been thus ...
One thing I can think of is remind people that r/fediverse is not exactly the place where "the fediverse" is developed, managed, or happening.
Then follow this dev and see what is up! I care much more that the software and the instance are acting like decent neighbours than I do about the infra its hosted on.
Agreed :)
I’m a software developer, not a social scientist. And though my bias is to turn everything into a technical problem, I doubt there’s a way to “change culture” AND give people freedom at the same time.
I’m on the hunt for tools that make it easy to behave like a functioning adult who’s gone to therapy, and make it hard to behave like a goblin with a megaphone.
I'm branching now and I'll get back to the DM you sent me and comment in GitHub, but the strategic application of just the right amount of friction into the UX is really underappreciated. The goblins are out there, your megaphone might be picked up, but if it has a little design element of some goblin-offending colour choice that non-goblins look at and think "huh, odd, but doesn't bother me none..." that's a good move.
Agreed :)
I’m a software developer, not a social scientist. And though my bias is to turn everything into a technical problem, I doubt there’s a way to “change culture” AND give people freedom at the same time.
I’m on the hunt for tools that make it easy to behave like a functioning adult who’s gone to therapy, and make it hard to behave like a goblin with a megaphone.
@johannab @benpate @thisismissem I've been fighting this in my own small way for a while now. Whether it's culture policing or yelling at anyone that dares use the word LLM (even in a neutral way), there are people here that are making it their mission to eject the heathens.
My hope is that it really is just a small number and if enough people support posters when they see this behavior, they'll realize they'd just be better off just unfollowing.
@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem I think the haters are minority, just a loud one, and many of the rest of us are quietly plodding along. We need to remember to speak up with prompts like Ben did, though, because otherwise the loud minority is all people hear. I did see there were many more positive comments or honest questions in the reddit thread too, though, which was nice.
@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem I also think there's an important intersection to note that is occupied by some of the "fedi for me but not for thee..." types. People did "escape" to here because of bad experiences elsewhere, and that is such a typical human experience, and one that almost always leads to distrust and resistance when they perceive something from "that bad place" intruding in their new safe space. Right or wrong, I think that's an underlying experience that informs reactions.
@scottjenson @benpate @thisismissem
One of the answers is to continue evolving our tools for autonomy and choice, and where someone's new development causes worry, we need to work on renegotiating the gaps and boundaries amongst us. And continue repeating to everyone that there's room here for all of us, in all the ways we want to be here. And basically "don't be a dick" about it, from any position you're in.
I’m with you all the way, here.
Let’s say we DO evolve our tools. What would they look like when we’re done?
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem I wasn't just being silly when I riffed on Anuj's People Not Platforms with Build Purpose Not Products last year. The phrase was off the cuff, but the Futures & Systems stuff I was already chasing was very heavily about understanding your functional outcome - the purpose of a system, the need it meets - first, and keeping guardrails up *hard* as you work backwards to your building blocks.
Unfortunately and even here, we've mostly not done that.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem I wasn't just being silly when I riffed on Anuj's People Not Platforms with Build Purpose Not Products last year. The phrase was off the cuff, but the Futures & Systems stuff I was already chasing was very heavily about understanding your functional outcome - the purpose of a system, the need it meets - first, and keeping guardrails up *hard* as you work backwards to your building blocks.
Unfortunately and even here, we've mostly not done that.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Our core tools are not bad, and it's not wrong that so many have started with "hey, I have an idea for this cool thing that'll solve my particular little nerdy problem" and set something out into the world. But the global digisphere is communication, which makes all tools relational. They become used in unexpected or unintended ways that can lead to harm, great or small, when we haven't considered whether the purpose meets the users' needs.
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem Or worse ... the purpose ends up being corrupted to meet the needs of a MISuser. Only a tiny few of us have not experienced the abuses of corporate social media manipulation, which means most of us are wary of SOMEthing, with good cause from our past experiences.
I don't think it's so much what our tools (products) would look like; I think it is that our greater community needs trust and reassurance that their safety is considered.
@johannab @scottjenson @thisismissem
This really gets to the heart of things. When we deal online with anonymous avatars, there’s a danger, and unknown that increases everyone’s anxiety.
Compare that to talking to people you’ve met in person even once, or shared a few video conferences with.
The nature of this medium pushes people into a stress position.. so every interaction starts off guarded.
@benpate @johannab @scottjenson small asterisk here: this doesn't mean ID verification on social media but rather attunement and adaptation to contexts and sneakernets
@benpate @scottjenson @thisismissem
The way that all came out in one of my first design exercises was "Great. you have clearly identified and accommodated your target clients' needs. Now go find 12 important stakeholders you have neglected to even think of so far, and design for them too."
An architect in a workshop I attended but this into practice by considering the experiences on the sidewalks of people who would never enter the buildings he designed.
I love this. It’s like, sure interview your customers to see what kinds of stuff they like buying. But the GOLD would be talking to the people who passed by your store and DIDN’T come in.
I love this. It’s like, sure interview your customers to see what kinds of stuff they like buying. But the GOLD would be talking to the people who passed by your store and DIDN’T come in.
@benpate @johannab
Second this request. I hear this "we just need better tools" request frequently actual solid suggestions are rare.
But it's possible! For example, the ability to withdraw from a quote post completely defangs the quoter. It's a clear tool to combat harassment and is powerful as it takes power away from the quoter.
But in the case of reply guys, I'm not sure there is much to do. Any "voting" type of solution can be gamed. Offering "no reply" posts is a powerful option (someday) but not for everyone. "Followers only" is also much safer but much less interaction.
It's like we want there to be widespread posting but only 'the good people' can reply. Tricky problem.
@scottjenson @benpate @johannab I think you're on the right track. My experience here is good but I've been pretty proactive (although I don't run my own server.) I wonder how we could make the experience good for users that are a little less proactive?
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