When I was growing up, we had operating systems that exposed a lot of the technical details about their inner workings, and websites that let us use code to customize them, like MySpace and Geocities. UX designers in tech have since optimized away most of the stuff that allowed and encouraged people to learn to use technology and now people get confused by files and browser tabs. And as the knowledge shrinks, more and more things have to be simplified away. I only ever see it as a one way road.
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@Gargron When you were growing up, only the technically proficient used the Internet. Now there are 6 billions Internet users, the majority on smartphones.
@Gargron I, too, thought about this subject yesterday. More specifically: why do we so often *start* with the assumption that ”regular people” are incapable of learning how to use their computers? Can’t we give it a try, to see if some of them are willing to learn more than just clicking an Install button on their phones? There’s a whole generation of Gen Z who we ignored to teach computers to. We didn’t give them the incentive to even try learning.
Hi @Gargron,
this seems a thread about #convivlal #tools without naming it such.
Tools are either #emancipative or #convenient. The smarter they are. the dumber and more dependant you. The less smart the tools, the more skill is trained in you. Choose #agency or #convenience. #Priorities matter. #Longread: https://archive.org/details/illich-conviviality
@gargron Oh, you can't imagine how glad I am right now. I've blamed UI/UX so many times for making stuff worse.
So.
Much.
Worse.
Be it with HTML in emails, be it with "simplification". And I've had discussions so many times. .. oh, and how I've have blamed (and still do) Apple for hiding technical details behind "convenience", for making users dumb.
I know it feels ableist these days, but I am still convinced that technology (like, everything with computers) is too complex and too dangerous to be put in everyone's fingers. Or especially into politicians hands (see #fckplntr or every other surveillance dream or the recent signal "hack" or almost any regulation at the expense of the people instead of big tech or administration (at least in Germany))...
So thanks again fur the UI part.🙏
@Gargron Albert Einstein: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”
(For people which don‘t trust citates, here is, what he really said: “It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.” ;)
@Gargron it's too bad mastodon is a twitter clone instead of a myspace clone that would have been rad
70%population of world doesn't need to be a tech savy to use any thing.... People want simple and easy to use stuffs in life... Company that making/creating stuffs needs tech nerds to create those stuffs. because of simplicity & easy to use nature users ready to sacrifice their privacy too. I mean why people need technical knowledge about how a call or message works in background?
@Gargron
NeoCities says you're just old.
@Gargron when i describe something as a directory rather than a folder, i get this blank expression.
Yeah, I feel this so much. It's like we traded all that messy, creative potential for a sleek surface that nobody's allowed to scratch. Makes you wonder what we've actually lost in the name of "user-friendliness.
When you come to the fork in the road, take it.
when I was growing up, you could open the hood of a car and understand what all the parts were
now it is buried beneath an enormous tangle of pipes and hoses and stuff
when my grandfather was a kid, he could fix a manual typewriter
etc etc back to the stone age guy who whined about the new fancy imported spear throwers
@Gargron Are you hinting of a geocities like interface to customize Mastodon? Now that would be awesome.
@Gargron I honestly think both paths can be walked at once.
Customizing your UI teaches you practically nothing about computers, no more than installing a different launcher on Android teaches you about what's going on inside a smartphone.
What i love about #elementaryOS for instance, is that it's very simple to use. The UI is pretty and straight forward. Customizing it is limited to wallpaper, dark/light theme and accent colors.
But when i want to do advanced stuff... 1/2
@Gargron one of the things that bother me most is that UI designers have this idea that if you have a good design any documentation becomes unnecessary. Technical documentation is becoming useless or non-existent.
@Gargron I learned to "code" using the Dbase interface. I still use the things I learned in that process.
@Gargron
Yes, and the less the user knows the easier it is to take advantage of them (not a good thing).
I guess it is part of the transition from computing as a hobby to computing as an appliance.
@Gargron in those times internet wasn't widely spread and most people who used it were either technologically proficient or didn't knew what was going on and barely understood what was happening.
Most people don't care how browsers and their computers work. They just want them to work. If your kitchen stove wasn't simple to use and you had to manually tinker with its insides to just make your food, would you actually use it? Interestingly, knowledge about how kitchen stoves work didn't shrink. People who are interested in the topic still learn it.
@tragivictoria I was a child. How was I technologically proficient? I didn't understand a thing when I first logged on. That's kind of my point.
@Gargron you were interested in it enough to learn it.
Part of the reason kitchen stoves are so easy to use is because people are not interested in how they work. If being an electrician was required just to heat up, e.g. lasagna that would be an easy way to make sure nobody would want to use them. And yet it doesn't really stop people from learning all this stuff.
In fact that was the case with linux. For the longest time it wasn't exactly the most user friendliest OS. And that's why people moved back to Windows and MacOS
Simplicity of use and limiting opportunities to learn are two different things
@tragivictoria Stoves are not a great analogy because they're relatively simple tools with a singular purpose (heating things up) and their inner workings aren't being obscured (you know if you have a gas, electric, or induction stove, and you have access to the power level settings). Now, if the power level settings on stoves were replaced with 3 settings for specific foods only, then it'd be comparable to what I'm talking about.
@Gargron When I grew up, the OS was ditched by coders, taking over the system for maximum speed and resources. 😃👍
"ChatGPT, summarize Eugen's post for me, it has too many sentences in it, way too much to read"
(/s)
@Gargron I think there's a modern thirst for what used to be normal with computing and the web. Most people are sick of being boxed into a certain way of doing things - we're creative by nature and what's mainstream right now is largely restrictive in that sense.
The core problem is the commercialization of it all. Companies started wanting to sell computers and software (and show ads) to people who don't want to put in any effort to educate themselves how to use these technologies. This is how we got this relentless simplification.
Except some people just don't want tech anyway. I have an elderly relative who is essentially forced by the society to have a smartphone. It's quite predictable that she would sometimes ask me "Grisha, why is it not working well, can you take a look" and I'll see all kinds of nasty bloatware and adware she inadvertently installed. It happened on several occasions. I was able to put an end to this by setting up system-wide ad blocking via DNS like I do on my own devices.
This is what convinced me that the society needs to change to make the use of tech a choice, not a burden.
A legitimate perspective. I understand it as a technique driven perspective.
Let me add a second perspective. Reduction is an art. If ‘form follows function’ hard work is required. If done right the outcome can be pure esthetics. Thin of Braun Hi-fi equipment, Apple iPhone, Jacob Jensen, Bauhaus Designers a.o.
There are many other perspectives.
Why does it matter whether people know how to use files and tabs or re-install their operating system? Isn't it better to let people get on with their day? Well, it's like with everything in life, ignorance costs a premium. If you are ignorant of something, you can be taken advantage of. Apple sells you expensive devices capable of running any program in the world, but keeping an iron grip on what you can run on it. Google is following suit. Many such cases.
@Gargron and absurdly many (maybe not most) Open Source evangelists love Apple. Why?
@Gargron Ignorance comes with a price tag, but that doesn't mean avoiding it is always the best move. Many a times it is worth it. Files, for example, anyway are an abstraction. There are many abstractions, but I'd say it is more important to understand and take a call how it affects you and the society.
Google taking control of everyone's Android is being run entirely through Google Play Services, not the Android OS. I certainly don't want to be party to that.
@Gargron do we have a deal?
@Gargron You clarify that you are talking about iOS/iPadOS because I've never seen an "iron grip" on MacOS that prevents me from running what I want. Between brew and compilers, MacOS is still fine in this respect.
@Gargron very well said. Big corporations can also lobby for laws they want due to tech illiteracy. Mostly tech literate society would never allow mandatory identification on web
@Gargron They're coming for the URL bar next I suspect.
@Gargron I wouldn't be so dire: when I was growing up only a small subset of people was using computers and the vast majority used MSDOS or Windows 95 with closed source software. Today's population using and understanding open source software/hardware is incredibly larger than 30 years ago. So, people mindlessly using chromebooks and browsers today are the equivalent of yesterday's TVs and washing machines users.
May I remind that current Linux usage numbers on the desktop are about 5% (grossly underestimated).
And no, having to do with monstrosities like CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT was not that educational... 😄
@Gargron Remember when they remade old reddit without custom subreddit CSS? They promised they would build appearance settings to compensate, but no matter how many you put, a finite collection of settings can never replace everything you can do with arbitrary code. And even if they let you send feedback to request missing features, it would still be a pain in the ass to get support to add what you ask for instead of making it yourself in minutes.
@Gargron i agree. i feel like the ability to customize, tinker, modify, edit... even hack (gently) websites and web apps especially has been taken away over the past 10-15 years of so. editing the live HTML of a Myspace page back in the 2000s almost feels impossible without all of the guardrails put in place today. it was actually fun to grow up on the internet and with computers during the 90s and 00s!
So.... does this mean custom native Mastodon UI css and scripting on a per-user, or per-instance basis will be officially supported sometime?
@Gargron For me it was Neopets!
@Gargron Yes, but it's also worth considering that, by today, there are people using this kind of technology that, three decades earlier, weren't still nowhere near tools more technologically complex than a TV set or a radio receiver....🙈
@Gargron Yes!
And while I appreciate that one should not need to be a nerd to use a computer, I also don't see the drive towards computers as locked-down appliances as desirable.
