Considering how popular the fediverse already is with at least some of the public institutions in Europe, this is a puzzling move.
"European organizations are about to launch their own social media platform, W, amid rising tensions with the United States."
@stefan If you read carefully, the article provides hints on why they do want to create another one:
„The initiative to create the social media platform W is supported by an advisory board and former ministers and business representatives, primarily from Sweden.“
In other words: There‘s no big money to be made w/ Mastodon and there’s no place for „former ministers“ and others to use it to look „important“ in any way either.
// @briankrebs
@stefan It could just be their own masto instances? Please tell me it's just their own masto instances?
@uastronomer Nope, looks like it's using ATproto: https://atprotocol.dev/w-for-atproto/
@stefan @uastronomer does ATproto still require that the main Bluesky servers are up?
@jcrabapple Blacksky recently managed to create their own appview, which was the last missing piece for full independence from Bluesky, from what I understand.
As for Northsky, --
"yes, Northsky will have it's own Apps / AppView as part of Phase 2 of development."
https://bsky.app/profile/jackvalinsky.com/post/3mcsel254hc2w
(No word from Eurosky in the same thread.)
@stefan @uastronomer it seems like an awful lot of up front work and maintenance to stay "independent".
@jcrabapple Yeah, I don't know how this is all going to look long-term, given how expensive it supposedly is to run the full infrastructure.
Blacksky has raised some money, but they currently have fewer users on their PDS than the Forkiverse server.
Northsky has much less than that.
Here, if you want to dig through the data: https://arewedecentralizedyet.online/data/
@stefan @briankrebs maybe it‘s a mastodon instance?
@jmovs Funny that you mention that, I just posted this:
@stefan Strange. Why wouldn't they choose ActivityPub instead?
@GrahamDowns Great question, would love to know as well!
(Not that I think we'll be missing out much.)
Wonder what protocol/software stack might be underneath 'W'
So, #ATProtocol eh?
This is all I have collected of any interest. The Issue is still open on Github, and dates to "opened on Aug 12, 2023"
qazmlp on Jun 12, 2024 · edited by qazmlp
"Please excuse the harsh wording, but ATProto is genuinely a "privacy-last" specification where the concept of follower-approval and post privacy aren't meaningful, aside from temporarily deactivating an account entirely.
(Adding a locked account feature to apps isn't entirely impossible of course, but doing so with privacy would require at the least a parallel network with distinct architecture and protocol.)
That's not to say there wouldn't be any value in an appview- and app-side mechanism to limit exposure though, as long as it's made clear that it's trivial to circumvent with an alternative client. That may at least turn away the brunt of the harassment in such situations."
Here: https://github.com/bluesky-social/social-app/issues/1155#issuecomment-2163556647
Also:
Nekkowe on Oct 21, 2024
"Thanks a lot for the answer, I was thinking about it and that maybe at-proto would be the 'guilty' for not getting this feature. What you said gave a new perspective of the issue.
Mind you, the AT Protocol is also developed by Bluesky PBC https://github.com/bluesky-social/atproto/tree/main?tab=readme-ov-file#about-at-protocol "
@FinchHaven Well this still seems to be just a guess, so we'll see. But regardless, I don't find this W project all that interesting, regardless of the protocol they use.
@stefan @FinchHaven seems to be basically confirmed now that they are at least using Bluesky/ATproto code because they have things like a PDS and a W-branded version of Bluesky's web app running out in the open:
https://stage.wsocial.eu/
https://pds-stage.wsocial.eu/
Whether or not this means a separate network or not is another question ofc...
Yeah I see it mostly as vaporware, speaking of software stacks...
well, it is a puzzling move but only for a very short time :)
If it would be ATProto it would not be an "European Alternative" it would just be an app built in Europe.
Crazy enough but maybe better to build diverse hosted European fedi instances ;)
@sl007 Well they would presumably build the full infrastructure, the PDS, the appview, etc.
Much like Blacksky has managed to do so recently, if you've been following the project:
No, I stopped following these non-real standard projects. I do also doubt some actors.
I am very disappointed - there are more and more such projects where volunteers are involved …
https://digitalcourage.social/@sl007/115934447986369998
cc @bjoernsta @leonido (shame on you)
@sl007 I agree. To me, ATproto/atmosphere will always be an attempt to coopt a successful grassroots movement that aims to take control of our social media away from tech companies. And they seem to be quite successful.
Still, seeing efforts like Blacksky and Northsky does give me hope that the control can be maybe wrestled back.
@stefan I hope it will at least be an independent deployment! What a bullshit… They could use real standards…
@stefan it's not "European organizations", it's one rich Swiss techbro trying to capitalize on the situation and get rich off of harvesting people's data herself instead of having American companies do it
@hazelnot Yes, the article really isn't doing a great job of explaining this initiative, appreciate everyone adding context in the replies!
@stefan
I think that's PR.
Looks like a private company with Swedish connections and run by a Swiss person who worked in eBay.
At least she's not efrom Amazon, Meta, Alphabet or MS.
@stefan The fediverse is harder to control. The EU are control freaks.
@stefan I think they should have gone with Y. As in "WHY aren't they federating???"
@stefan seems like addressing the underlying problem of social platforms not offering any interoperability or data portability would be more useful.
Let them know, its ignorance, get help from eu official accounts already on.
@stefan
My only question: is W to X as HAL was to IBM?
@stefan people will do literally anything to avoid building on top of web standards.
@stefan I guess decentralized sounds a bit too "anarchy" to some folks?
@stefan all the "W" marketing is so low rent and cringe it's impossible to take seriously
@stefan I wish they wouldn’t say “amid rising tensions” when they just mean Trump is a piece of shit.
If it's anything like similar startups (see Gander in Canada), they are going to spend lots of time on marketing material to investors, and little time on creating something actually useful
@stefan ... wait, are you telling me this isn't satire?
Seriously? Another silo?
@stefan "European organizations" like who ? Also, this is going nowhere.
@stefan @briankrebs It’s not. On the Fediverse they can’t make people verify themselves with ID documents but on this new platform they’re making, they can do that.
@MisuseCase Yep, that's what I'm thinking. https://stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/115929732351043465
@stefan Really? ‘W. A step ahead from X.’
Can I get my branding money now?
@stefan so long as they federate it, good. if not, they get a weak one.
@falcennial Yeah, I don't see anything about federating. And don't really expect that happening. But I guess we'll see!
@stefan It's a startup using big words, is all I can see. Not sure where this "European organisations" stuff comes from.
@stefan In the article it says the data is “stored decentralized in Europe”. But no info if it’s compatible with other platforms? A closed platform where all needs to be photo verified seems like it’s uncertain if it will work..
@doktorzjivago Yeah, I don't really see a point in this. Maybe it is just so that they can say they tried and it didn't work out.
But then again, maybe this is why.
"The new platform, W, will require identification and photo validation to ensure that its users are both humans and who they claim to be, Danish news media outlet Politiken.dk reports."
@stefan technically, they could launch a Fediverse-compatible server and do ID verification there, but federate to the whole Fediverse
@stefan Yeah, that tracks.
Someone lobbied some EU suits with 'how about we make our own, with blackjack, hookers, and blockchain, AND CHAT SURVEILLANCE ALREADY BUILT IN!' and all they had to do is slip a couple hundred million into some large telco's pockets to create that failure...
Classic modus operandi in EU for stuff like that.
@stefan Just because Europe's in a spat with America right now, I would like it to be more but am not that optimistic, doesn't mean they don't want to control and amass proffit from those who use the platform. You can't do that with the fediverse.
@stefan ooph. No, thankyew.
@stefan oh okay so barely anyone will use it then. I guess it's probably fine for publishing notifications from government officials and institutions though.
@stefan I aplaud the effort. I think the world might be different today if social media had begun with a requirement for positive ID, instead of being able to hide behind a pseudonym.
@Lockpro There are good reasons for wanting to be anonymous online, though:
https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/why-online-anonymity-matters
And there are many who post some truly vile stuff with their full name and photo attached, so, I don't know.
what anonymity do you have when creating a website? you have the same ability to post hate and misinfo that way. the only difference with decentralized social media is the boost. it's just a faster and easier way to spread that stuff than email or linking to it in your blog.
the problem is the bad shit plus the corporate algorithm. that it quickly figures out what vile stuff is triggering people and is able to push it out to millions and the profit incentive demands it.
@stefan @Lockpro The issue never was anonymity, but lack of accountability. Both for platforms and users.
If you post something vile, your account is suspended and it's a hassle to re-register you'll think twice before doing it again. But the current socal media standard¹ is you can post something vile with your full name and employer visible and still continue as if there's no problem.
___
¹ As per numerous examples on Facebook and x/Twitter
