Discussion
Trump has now set a deadline for Thursday next week, where he demands Ukraine signs an agreement to meet Putin’s demands:
— No NATO membership
— A reduction of its military to just 600,000 troops
— Accepting the loss of Donetsk, Luhansk, Crimea, and most of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia
— Forcing Ukrainian elections within 100 days
While Russia will
— Reenter the G8
— Have all sanctions lifted
This is not a peace agreement. This is capitulation.
@randahl this is not a deal, this is surrender.
@randahl this isn't a peace plan it's a load of bullshit that Trump and Putin need to be told to shove it back up where it came from.
Ukrainians were given guarantees by the USA and Russia and Europe that if they gave up the nuclear weapons stationed in their country their sovereignty would be protected.
Why would you trust these two again???
@randahl
And what is the "...or else"-part here? There is nothing that the orange shitshow could take away. He can just demand and yell like a small dog. But he doesn't play at the big boys table. Why do I even write this comment? Stfu Trump, go get your diapers changed.
@momo Trump can prevent democratic countries from buying US made weapons to Ukraine.
This may be a problem, as we do not have enough production capacity in the democracies to produce all the types of weapons needed ourselves (and enough of them).
Most pressing is the need for air defence systems. Ukraine uses US made Patriot air defence systems, and if Trump prevents delivery of missiles on
Thursday, more Ukrainians will die this winter.
I hate it, but this is how it is.
@randahl
Honestly, that is indeed a problem. It's almost 25 years now that I shot a HK G36 during a training exercise, but I remember a) the disappointment that a brand new rifle shoots as imprecise as my previously assigned G3 from 1964 and b) all the news about the gun production quality afterwards (barrel gets too hot during fire in heated climate, impact on precision, etc). Put the Eurofighter on top of that and suddenly european weapons, vehicles and equipment is not very relevant and hasn't been in the last 30 years.
Yes, we could maybe ramp up the production but that doesn't improve the quality. Anyone remember Airbus A400M and how Von Der Leyen got stuck in Afghanistan because of defects?
Thank you for pointing it out, there is an "...or else" indeed.
@momo I think Germany and Sweden has come out with some really impressive weapons lately.
For instance, I am reading that Rheinmetall’s Skynex system is incredibly effective against the Russian Geran 2 drones (the Russian version of the Iranian Shahed).
@randahl @momo Skynex isn't just incredibly effective, it is the best in the world. Nothing ever produced by the USA ever came close.
Also, there are European systems (SAMP-T) working in gaps where Patriot is currently struggling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix3IAzADbFc
There really are a lot of top notch non-USA alternatives ... not everything, but a lot.
@randahl Drump can fuck all the way off back to hell
@randahl please read your 1991 agreement that you made no Nato eastward expansion you lied and were dishonest.
@bcrouse2025 please link to the 1991 document where NATO promises not to allow more countries to join. Because I keep hearing Sergey Lavrov talk about this document, but I have not been able to find it.
@randahl I saw it one time it was posted. If you are concerned perhaps you can ask the Russian Government to post it if you are not busying censoring examples facebook, twitter, google etc..
An excellent (Dutch) article about this by Dutch historian and freelance writer Hidde Bouwmeester who researched this already.
Basically at different moments there have been suggestions made, but never by someone actually with a mandate, outdated quickly during the torrent of developments in the reunification of Germany, and never put in any kind of treaty.
There were actual real treaties on the military situation that were scrupulously followed
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@randahl Between capitulation or death, I reckon the choice is clear.
@randahl The post is factually sound (matches the FT/AFP leak, verified by 10+ outlets), but "capitulation" is interpretive – Zelenskyy called it "absurd" but open to "dignified" terms (TIME, November 21). The plan, drafted by Trump's envoy Steve Witkoff with Rubio/Kushner input, resembles Putin's demands (no NATO, territory ceded), but includes U.S. guarantees (aid if Russia reinvades). Negotiations ongoing; Ukraine rejects cessions but seeks talks (Zelenskyy, November 21).
Doesn't really seem like US promises for aid of _any_ kind are really bankable, does it?
Hasn't this stupid non-starter already been rejected by both Ukraine and the EU?
@randahl The USA is not our ally. Let's be real now.
@randahl I hope Zelensky will wave at trump with 2 middle fingers, with all of Europe behind him.
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@randahl And…
— Only ”significant aggression” over the ceasefire line will trigger the security gurantees: Russia can keep lobbing missiles and drones into Ukraine.
— ”NATO will place fighter planes in Poland”: No fighter planes in the Baltics.
It’s a stepping stone. It’s a Russian psy-op.
The play is on our willingness to consider ”peace” as the end, while for Russia this would only be the beginning..
But Putin is Weak, and so is Trump. They could be removed soon…