Discussion
A developer in Korea just built a Fediverse server that runs directly on CloudFlare.
/r/fediverse users responded:
"this is cancer"
"you are a horrible person"
???
Can you please help me with a genuine question: what would make the #Fediverse a more welcoming place?
Yes, humans are just grumpy sometimes. But a real solution can't just be more HOA members reading the rules at the door.
What do YOU think would make a difference here?
@golemwire @benpate interesting angle
Great points, thank you :)
Isolation breeds extremism (in either political direction) and the Fediverse does represent a certain amount of isolation.
@benpate A server that runs directly on Cloudflare sounds amazing to me. I’m currently running this instance through a Cloudflare tunnel (using GoToSocial on my NAS at home).
Me too. Inadvertently.
I’m on the Digital Ocean app platform, that automaticallly hosts everything behind CloudFlare.
I can understand people wanting to avoid being locked in to a specific platform. But to me, the coolest thing about this project is that it shows that you can host something completely “serverless” with Javascript.
Once we have that, how long is it until someone makes an open source CloudFlare-compatible environment?
Where will the haters be then?
Hi @benpate,
somehow I don't buy embracing a #monopoly goes well with 'diverse' an in #fediverse. But that's just my take.
On the surface, this makes a lot of sense.
But consider: “distributed” doesn’t mean “distributed, but only on small ISPs”
I say Fedi everywhere - even on the “bad” platforms. If it gives people the chance to learn about the Fediverse, it’s a win.
-
More importantly: you’re welcome to disagree, ignore my posts, or even block me if you don’t agree with my choices.
But the haters do damage to the Fediverse when they escalate from blocks to attacks and insults.
this is really the heart of the problem: a small number of very loud people see themselves as judges of what the "fediverse" means, or "federated" or "diverse". and i don't accept their authority.
and i do think the loudest are destroying the fediverse. i worry that when they're done, the fediverse will be perfectly in agreement on all "principles" and there will be like 23 people on it.
it was pointed out elsewhere on this thread that many of the loudest see themselves as refugees from corporate social media, and don't want to see the fediverse become like that. i get that—it's literally why i'm here. but i still don't think the fediverse needs their stewardship!
Yeah, you’re spot on. And identifying as victim/refugees probably helps fuel their behavior.
I think we’ve all bumped into them here. And hey, haters get to have opinions, too.
I just try to identify them quickly, then mute or block liberally.
How do you handle them? Any suggestions?
Hi @benpate
I totally agree to keep manners to keep controversial arguments enjoyable.
No room for hate.
You may hear me mad about something as soon as I understand what’s the issue 😅
The compulsion of some #mastodon #fediverse people to make negative comments and scolds about anything they can is awful and it runs new people away
I think there needs to be explicit encouragement in mastodon and the overall fediverse to be kind, helpful, welcoming, friendly, nonjudgmental, and to accept that other people can make their own choices on the fediverse and a negative comment isn't necessary or nice
Being kind and friendly and getting to know different people feels good friends
Shouldn't social networks be fun and... social ?
@frxe @benpate IMO the uber-scolds in the Mastodon Imperial Core have been losing clout as the network continues to grow around them.
however, it's still very important that people who love fedi (as opposed to The Mastodon Network™) continue working toward a few goals:
1. decrease median server size so as to de-emphasize fediblock drama
2. continue attracting cool misfits who aren't obsessed with purity spirals and moral righteousness
3. decrease the % of ActivityPub users on Mastodon.
deutrino I strongly believe we need more interest-based websites on the network. so many of the issues, from where I sit, come from the idea that the network is the attraction, but then you have no real reason for people to choose one site vs another, and no real sense of community, and no sense of responsibility to anything.
Everyone here already ends up a little mercenary, and you can’t tell anyone new why they should sign up, nor where. And I blame Mastodon’s designers for this, with their insistence on de-centering the Local feed and not making theming easy. they not only centre the network, but they frame the local website as a generic dumb terminal for accessing “Mastodon”.
deutrino I strongly believe we need more interest-based websites on the network. so many of the issues, from where I sit, come from the idea that the network is the attraction, but then you have no real reason for people to choose one site vs another, and no real sense of community, and no sense of responsibility to anything.
Everyone here already ends up a little mercenary, and you can’t tell anyone new why they should sign up, nor where. And I blame Mastodon’s designers for this, with their insistence on de-centering the Local feed and not making theming easy. they not only centre the network, but they frame the local website as a generic dumb terminal for accessing “Mastodon”.
@frxe @benpate beyond that... I instance-block the most toxic servers on my various accounts and my timelines are much better for it. especially once I became willing to throw a few babies out with the bathwater, as there are one or two sizable one where blocking results in collateral damage.
that doesn't help noobs, though, so maybe a shared blocklist for servers which don't necessarily break rules but have toxic admin and/or users is in order. good luck getting mass adoption though.
@benpate i can think of worse companies to host with tbh. Funnily enough these same people probably don't get that a significant portion of the fediverse is actually behind cloudflare's CDNs.
I think these "do as I say" holier than thou types are the bane of the decentralised web. Like, if I wanted to drive people away from open social projects, that's exactly how I'd do it: hire a small group of people to consistently be assholes to other's. It's like 101 from the CIA field guide to sabotage 🚩
Yeah, I'm noticing that more and more. Nothing is able to pass the purity tests. Nobody is good enough. So, doing ANYTHING means we're going to berate you for it.
I try to avoid going straight to the conspiracy theories, but it makes a lot of sense. No better way to discredit something than "false flag"
Then those brave, anonymous redditors are welcome to build their own versions of autonomy.
But it's arrogant to assume that THEIR way is the ONLY way.
What's worse for the Fediverse? A niche project that uses tech that a few people don't like? Or a reputation as an unwelcoming place where people will insult your work for not agreeing with their *specific* ideologies?
Right. A lot of people are in fedi to escape surveillance capitalism, and (justifiably IMHO) see Cloudflare as a surveillance capitalism company. And a lot of people in fedi are anti-fascist, and so don't like Cloudflare funding projects like Ladybird or Omarchy. And a lot of people see LLMs -- or more generally "AI" as a political project -- as reinforcing fascism and having huge ethical issues.
The strong pushback is antibodies. Cloudflare dropped wildebeest at least in part because there were blocklists going around that defederated all wildebeest instances. Gab gave up on federation because the pushback was so strong; Truth Social didn't even try.
True, it's very hit-or-miss just what sparks the antibodies. And, opinions differ: plenty of people here think the path to fedi's success is to be friendly to surveillance capitalism companies, or don't think of Ladybird and Omarchy as fascist aligned, or don't think it matters that Cloudflare is funding them. It' complex! But, these are the kinds of complexities people have to deal with if they want to navigate fedi.
So @benpate and @scottjenson , I don't think you're going to change that culture -- and you should really think about what message you're sending when you say you want to try.
@jdp23 @benpate @scottjenson @rakoo not all antibody or immune systems work correctly, sometimes those drive things that are good from your system.
I'm not wanting to debate the pros/cons of any company, system, etc. but instead there is a a pattern here across the history of the fediverse where people try to do something and get harassed of the network, rather than gently being called in. I'm sure you know as much as anyone else just what the black community encountered here, I think this is all a similar pattern of behaviour of judging quickly and harshly rather than welcoming different viewpoints.
That could be an immune system, but it could also be malfunctioning at the same time, creating situations that don't benefit the Fediverse
No, I don't think the pattern of fedi's resistance to projects they see as bringing fascism to the fediverse is at all analogous to the racist harassment that Black people here face.
I do agree that the way that it's easy for people who unintentionally triggering the antibodies get scorched isn't necessarily good. (I don't consider a few rude comments on reddit as scorching, but there certainly have been other incidents with more abuse.). I even have a suggested approach for making progress! High-profile fedi influencers need to do a much better job about informing people who are thinking of developing for fedi about what's likely to trigger the antibodies.
With consent (a common source of triggering antibodies) I even put in the time to host a fediforum session and write up a pretty good document (if I do say so myself) outlining what needs to be done, with a goal of making it easier for people with a much bigger megaphone than me to let everybody know that hey, these are the norms here, it can be confusing -- and make sure to get feedback. I and o thers certainly used that to defuse several potential blowups (which you haven 't heard about becuase they didn't blow up). That said, fedi influencers are gonna do what they're gonna do, so for the most part I haven't noticed a lot of change (although kudos to the Mastodon project, which has made a lot of progress taking consent into account on new functionality).
Anyhow even though nobody wants to hear it, the same approach applies here. Fedi influencers need to talk about fedi's history of resistance to fasciam, and the strong opposition to "AI" in many corners here, and make sure people considering writing fedi software know they need to take this into account. And it's not always obvious, so step 1 is to ask!
Yes, this is going to make fedi development a lot more difficult and/or undesirable to many developers. But the resistance to fascism and "AI" isn't going to go away, so the alternative is antibodies flaring.
@jdp23 I hear you there and I've been trying to get a similar document written for the CG but there's been little to no interest in it.
Whilst the describe things are different scales, not all reactions are the same strength. I'd probably call it a fediverse histamine system rather than an immune system, though those two systems are linked in the body they're still distinct. And as you well know I've a lot of experience with the histamine system going awry and triggering when it maybe shouldn't.
@thisismissem histamines is a good framing, quite possibly better. And whether it's histamines or antibodies, certainly times when it's gone awry, triggering more intensely than needed or in some cases when maybe it shouldn't. That said, part of the reason why (more obvious with consent-related stuff) is just because this response keeps getting triggered again and again and frustration leads to people reacting very sharply -- even though it's not newcomers fault that they've just walked into a situation with all this past history and nobody told them to be careful.
So yeah, definitely worth thinking about how to encouraged better-calibrated responses ... but also cutting down on the triggering would be good!
I've been trying to get a similar document written for the CG but there's been little to no interest in it.
Why am I not surprised to hear this?
Culture change is hard. Sooooo many people got here "first" and think their claim is the only correct one. Has always been thus ...
One thing I can think of is remind people that r/fediverse is not exactly the place where "the fediverse" is developed, managed, or happening.
Then follow this dev and see what is up! I care much more that the software and the instance are acting like decent neighbours than I do about the infra its hosted on.
Culture change is hard. Sooooo many people got here "first" and think their claim is the only correct one. Has always been thus ...
One thing I can think of is remind people that r/fediverse is not exactly the place where "the fediverse" is developed, managed, or happening.
Then follow this dev and see what is up! I care much more that the software and the instance are acting like decent neighbours than I do about the infra its hosted on.
Agreed :)
I’m a software developer, not a social scientist. And though my bias is to turn everything into a technical problem, I doubt there’s a way to “change culture” AND give people freedom at the same time.
I’m on the hunt for tools that make it easy to behave like a functioning adult who’s gone to therapy, and make it hard to behave like a goblin with a megaphone.
Agreed :)
I’m a software developer, not a social scientist. And though my bias is to turn everything into a technical problem, I doubt there’s a way to “change culture” AND give people freedom at the same time.
I’m on the hunt for tools that make it easy to behave like a functioning adult who’s gone to therapy, and make it hard to behave like a goblin with a megaphone.
@johannab @benpate @thisismissem I've been fighting this in my own small way for a while now. Whether it's culture policing or yelling at anyone that dares use the word LLM (even in a neutral way), there are people here that are making it their mission to eject the heathens.
My hope is that it really is just a small number and if enough people support posters when they see this behavior, they'll realize they'd just be better off just unfollowing.
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