@ableijs The Matrix ecosystem is primarily dominated by one VC funded company. The server that everyone uses is developed by them. The client that everyone recommends is developed by them.
There are some baby steps towards a slightly more diverse ecosystem but for now it's a toss up between whether that's going to happen and enshittification once the VCs want their money back.
XMPP on the other hand is a healthy diverse ecosystem with various stake holders.
@daniel Signal is an E2EE’d concurrent to Telegram and WhatsApp, whereas XMPP is a concurrent to MSN, Facebook, and ICQ. Recommending XMPP to someone looking for state-of-the-art E2EE and asserting Signal on every use case are both unacceptable.
@kris @oceane @daniel i was an xmpp user 20 years ago.But the fall wasnt only due to defederation. It was also cause it wasnt working properly when u had several devices connected simultaneously(depending on priority &connectivity messages were arriving to one device or the other).There was a fix(some server storage) but not all servers implemented it.With the encryption most are using omemo but there is still no encryption and pgp based...I think its easier to attract people to signal&matrix
@kris @oceane @antoniovr Those fixes have been widely implemented about a decade ago https://gultsch.de/posts/the-state-of-mobile-xmpp-in-2016/
@ableijs The Matrix ecosystem is primarily dominated by one VC funded company. The server that everyone uses is developed by them. The client that everyone recommends is developed by them.
There are some baby steps towards a slightly more diverse ecosystem but for now it's a toss up between whether that's going to happen and enshittification once the VCs want their money back.
XMPP on the other hand is a healthy diverse ecosystem with various stake holders.
@daniel @ableijs
I could say the same thing about XMPP. But if I'm uninformed, I don't publicly write down any assumptions or information that is 10 years out of date.
There are a bunch of server and even more client implementations. Yes, @element still has a lot of influence, but The @matrix Foundation is doing it's best to get independent and is funded by a really diverse ecosystem.
For example I'm the founder of a company based in #Dresden building on #matrix. Our Open Source client SDK #trixnity is used in the TI-Messenger of every public health insurance company but one - so possibly millions of users. We also have an Open Source client #Tammy. Yes, we still have the problem, that Element is recommended by a lot of people but the same problem applies to a lot of Open Source ecosystems including #xmpp.
I'm pretty sure the ecosystem would survive without Element despite the fact that Element is doing a good job in pushing the ecosystem in the right direction despite the VC.
@ableijs I develop a client for Android and I basically can't make any unilateral decisions without involving two client developers (Desktop + iOS) and/or two different server developers from the two major server implementations. And that's a good thing!
@daniel
Thnx. This is what I wanted to learn.
@daniel Yeah, similar to recommending silo-to-fedi bridges for example. As long as others can find your content in the silo, there's no incentive to use the open alternative.
@raucao @daniel@gultsch.socia Indeed! But on the other hand, bridges allow early adopters to move, so they're a double-edged tool if anything.
@zash @raucao anecdotical data point to support this: I started using XMPP because it had good bridges to silos. It lead me to (modestly) contribute to slixmpp, gajim and write some prosody modules. I very much doubt bridges between proprietary silos and open networks hinder adoption of the latter. Of course, this is very hard to quantify objectively.
@daniel Yes. But if the messages they might mover over too is way less convenient and fun on the feature and UI aspects. None of the XMPP based messsengers come even close to Signal, Telegram or WhatsApp in this regard.
People really like stories, proper voice message handling, GIFs, stickers, polls and so on and often decide to stick with the service which provides these fun, usability and convenience features - or abandon the inferior alternative rather fast.
@daniel Just not true for too many people.
People really like stories, proper voice message handling, GIFs, stickers, polls and so on and often decide to stick with the service which provides these fun,usability and convenience features.
