Post by @jz@piaille.fr

I said already that I love #Reticulum.. yet i just thought of it this way:

As Reticulum is transport agnostic (a node connects through many "interfaces": local wifi, BLE, lora radio, UHF, FM radio, etc. _and_ TCPClient interfaces), the fact one can actually use _internet_ is the 🐘 in the room (most ppl probably do connect to reticulum via internet today?) and also an amazing feature:

1/ it enables super-easy onboarding. basically install an app, some will add TCPClient interface for you, and voila.

2/ it enables to test features, routing, new protocols and ideas at large-scale, while learning how everything works, and becoming ready for the next thing.

#reticulum

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anarcat

@Anarcat@kolektiva.social 17 hr. ago

@jz @jz @lvl3k i am really on the fence on this: on the one hand, yes, it's awesome that #reticulum can Just Work over TCP out of the box but i'll be damned if i'll allow onboarding to be "super easy"... meshchat? *nomadnet*? much of it is just hostile UX, and sometimes it feels deliberate (come on, control-d to send a message??)... and also, that means we rely on the internet to route messages, and it's unclear what will keep working after we're censored or everything collapses.. on the other hand, meshcore networks are have a strong "lora-only" approach that really forces to work out the radio problems directly (and those are *hard), i'm not sure reticulum would actually scale *there*, at the size of a city

adingbatponder

@adingbatponder@fosstodon.org 5 hr. ago

@Anarcat @jz @lvl3k Interesting ideas. I was wondering what it was about RNS that you think would scale less well than meshcore?

Jérémie Zimmermann🎶💗🧀🫖

@jz@piaille.fr 4 hr. ago

@adingbatponder @Anarcat @lvl3k

packets are slightly bigger because of cryptography (ie. routing like path requests, responses, announces, are also encrypted) and the fact that lora has minuscule bandwidth that would inevitable crumble when dozens of parties are using it at the same time. adaptative TX power, multi-channel/channel-hopping techniques could be used to push these limit a bit further... but when talking of cities of millions of people... divide lora bw by that and you get to these conclusions.

adingbatponder

@adingbatponder@fosstodon.org 4 hr. ago

@jz @Anarcat @lvl3k Yes but #reticulum would use a network of 2.5G #wifi like #freifunk in towns and it scales fine for that as the best route is chosen. It also already has internet content and infrastructure see https://reticulum.site and is therefore very multi-purpose. It can daisy chain transport infrastructure because it is hardware agnostic.

Open a Reticulum site

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Jérémie Zimmermann🎶💗🧀🫖

@jz@piaille.fr 8 hr. ago

@Anarcat @lvl3k Again i look at it with some distance: if Reticulum blossomed in an exponential way in the last 6-12m, it's still at its infancy, and those things may take time, but naturally emerge somehow. (an app that is not vibe-coded AND coïncide to an æsthetics that nerds consider "user-friendly" and/or that gains traction).. i would see this as a "detail of implementation" in a scenario where things continue to grow/get traction.

agreed that in its current form reticulum is not fit for a lora-only network the size of a city. but nobody mentioned this would be a good idea anyways (nor would that work with meshcore?). lora+wifi+BLE+..+..on other hand..

Jérémie Zimmermann🎶💗🧀🫖

@jz@piaille.fr 8 hr. ago

@Anarcat @lvl3k nomadnet clearly has a nerdy æsthetics (that i personally adore), targeted at people with a technical apetite, and/or willing to learn. Sideband on the other hand acts like your "normal" android app (the exact opposite somehow). I think Columba, Ratspeak, etc. on the vibe-coded side have an appeal as a "modern" standardized app, clearly not what i go for.

Dont wan't to open that can of worms, but i dont believe in "users" neither in people being so stupid that they need genius techno-elite to design special things for them. I have seen people learn everything if they had the right motivation, and #reticulum doesnt lack good motivations.

anarcat

@Anarcat@kolektiva.social 17 hr. ago

@jz @lvl3k also, don't get me wrong: I *love* reticulum, but damn it's all over the place right now. just get me a set of repeaters that can replace our #meshcore mesh and i'll just switch, but we're missing so many things right now (OTA upgrades, remote admin, group chat) that i'm just waiting for now...

adingbatponder

@adingbatponder@fosstodon.org 3 hr. ago

@Anarcat @jz @lvl3k Not really right to say group chat does not exist please correct your post perhaps ? https://reticulum.site/rin/reticulum.me/lorameshchat for example
but see chat forums listed on reticulum.site

Open a Reticulum site without installing Reticulum

Jérémie Zimmermann🎶💗🧀🫖

@jz@piaille.fr 3 hr. ago

@adingbatponder @Anarcat @lvl3k such nomadnet walls/chats still make an entire group depend on a central point, very similar so depending on a _server_ for communications to exist....

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Kokos 💠

@lvl3k@mastodon.social 23 hr. ago

@jz I am kind of thinking about it as tor with its own routing and hidden services, but maybe I am stretching similarity a lot or am just wrong.

Jérémie Zimmermann🎶💗🧀🫖

@jz@piaille.fr 22 hr. ago

@lvl3k i think us tech-elite nerds have many biases when it comes to appreciating #reticulum, that people with no such tech baggage would not have (may actually be easier for them to learn everything reticulum from scratch!)

unlike tor, reticulum is its own network stack. it is not sitting on top of something else that is weak (tcp/ip), can function on its own with protocols on top.

like tor you can operate services without asking persmission, and it is unfortunately +/- easy to de-anonymize for a global active adversary.

unlike tor it offers ways (with no "supernodes", collective control over architecture and everyone's control of identity) to do better.