@neil this "omg teenager are online" framing is pretty wrong. For me the problem is that they're frying their brains on platforms that are designed to be highly addictive which do not provide any benefit.
But that is not only a problem with kids, adults are also falling into that trap everywhere.

We need restrictions on algorithm-based, commercial "social" media platforms. not on time spent with a computer.

@neil

How do people define 'sociable'? What is the difference between two people meeting up a a library / cafe to play say chess and two people playing online?

What is the difference between people meeting up and playing a game such as command and conquer face to face and playing online.

In both cases it is a 'social' activity, just done differently,

What about CB/Ham radio, is that not social interaction.?

@neil YES, where are the eu initiatives to provide free sheltered/heated/cooled public hangout spaces for kids, where they also have free access to food and drink

also, I'm old enough to remember the government scare campaigns from the 80s and 90s like "It's 4PM. Do you know where your teenager is? If they're not at home, they're probably DOING DRUGS. 😡"

@neil one day we'll see a study that says kids will go outside and play, just as soon as they damn well feel safe and free to go out, so we ought to stop writing laws telling them WTF to do.

If they want to enforce going outside to play, they should bring a jungle gym in and see which lawmakers are brave enough to enjoy some play time.

(Please, someone do this! I'll break my 10+ month media fast to watch it live!)

@neil my (disabled) daughter certainly spends 6 hours a day online, and has since she was a child. Most of that time is spent talking to her friends. if someone has a problem with that - with kids spending time with friends in whatever way works for them - then they have their heads on wrong.

@neil If we'd stop destroying the beauty outside and stop allowing cars to run down kids who are trying to have a childhood, they'd probably go outside more. But fuck no, we have to let people sit in their fucking machines all day destroying the entire planet or they might get fucking angry.

@neil probably also the same people who complain about groups of youths riding bikes, or fight against planning permission for a McDonalds because it would be a hangout spot. 😒

@neil @bencurthoys @fullywoolly @mastodonmigration @schmidt_fu @raven667 @sldrant

This isn't about protecting children from Facebook. This is about eradicating healthy nonprofit alternatives to Facebook, such as the Fediverse.

If you'll read the vast majority of these laws, you'll find that they impose compliance costs that only Facebook can afford. No way that's an accident.

Protecting children is the excuse. Controlling public discourse using the Facebook algorithm is the goal.

It is also interesting to ponder what is meant by "spending time online", and how that is calculated.

Is it the same as "screen time"? And, if so, does that include time spent reading books on a device with a screen, of which I do a lot as I love my eReader?

I presume that my time reading and writing fedi posts is "online" time?

Time spent reading/replying to email? But not if I had printed the email to read on paper?

Time on calls with people? But not if I had the same meeting in a room with the same people?

Time collaborating on a document in etherpad? But not doing the same work in vim running locally?

Time watching a film from my media server (or Netflix, for the sake of argument)? But not if it were non-IP broadcast TV?

#EUKIDSAct

@neil re the last point specifically:

We have commercialized our society so far that all the hanging-out spaces are becoming enclosed, and are disappearing.

This hits teenagers especially hard, because they usually have the least disposable money. But it’s a pretty horrific way to run a society in general.

@neil I was easily spending 4-6 hrs online chatting with friends from school on AIM, moderating a forum, learning photo manipulation with gnu imp and creating art with it, learning about linux, lots of slashdot, security focus, doing homework... Lots of school activities, had a gf, etc.

I'm with you, I was way more social online. Part of that was how my school bused kids from across the city. But that continued in a large part through undergrad.

It wasn't an exclusive or situation.

@neil

Just replace "online" with "watching TV" and you've captured the moral panic of the two previous generations. And you know what, they were right. 🤷

@neil
The people who have been online 4-6 hours a day back then (mostly at night, because dial-in rates) are nowadays in good part the backbone of our technical world.
And they
- talked to anonymous strangers from the end of the world
- consumed questionable content
- made equally questionable websites ("profiles")
- joined in popularity contests ("social")

Maybe we can get rid of the "screen time" argument for good, and focus on intention and media literacy somewhat...

@neil my view would depend on what they are doing online. Creative stuff = good, 6 hours of doomscrolling = bad.

@neil It's really the same error of thinking as "kids these days spend too much time at the computer!" without really looking into what the kids are doing at the computer, which was generally some combination of expressing themselves, engaging with art, meeting friends, learning programming and commiting cybercrimes, the latter of which being perhaps not unambigiously positive but still under the general header of "learning useful skills", just in a slightly misdirected way.