@gdt @cwebber Debian was the signal that the damage was done. They all got successfully hijacked.

@randygalbraith @cwebber There is an unfortunate conflation of "generative AI" and all things that have ever been under the umbrella of AI things like machine learning.

I can't speak for Christine, but I don't think most people have a problem with applications of machine learning or neural nets that are along the lines of what you're describing.

The concerns, at least mine, are around generative AI where people offload their thinking to models to generate code, writing, images, etc.

A system that is trained to recognize, say, highway markers and lanes, as well as "oh, you might be coming up on an obstacle way too quickly" is IMO fine as long as humans aren't just turning their driving over to the machine.

I have a 2017 Subaru with lane assist. I don't know exactly how it works, but it's not something I think is going to destroy society or even eat up all a town's water and energy resources.

The problem is, IMO, squarely with generative AI systems - especially proprietary black-box ones that are being offered up as human replacements or substitutes for knowing how to do things.

There are open source driver assistance things (e.g. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot intended to run on Comma . ai hardware [from "geohot" hacker of PS3 notoriety).

Rivian, refers to their in-the-works Autonomy+ driving as "LDM" (Large Driving Model) though I think in instances such as those?

The training data is typically provided by opt-in drivers?

Rather than, non-consensual copyrighted works via scrapers?

I think there are probably other reasons to be concerned, like: automotive accidents result in more deaths per year in the USA than guns last I checked, and at least in my experience? I see Waymos, Teslas (20% of which have "Full 'Self Driving'") Zoox and such as being, hella sketchy to drive around and I wonder if they may not be causing more problems to already hazardous conditions than they may be attempting to solve?

Most (I guess, more rudimentary) LKAS or "Adaptive Cruise Control" systems I have explored personally on rental cars, basically seem like little more than old school cruise control and I doubt they have a lot of smarts? More proximity warnings due to radar (or maybe LiDAR in upcoming Rivians?) to attempt to do some automated braking/collision avoidance in stop and go traffic sorts of gridlock. But, I don't work in such realms, so I can't claim to be an authoritative expert in such subjects (my dad was a car nut, I hate cars, yet have been researching new vehicles and coming up to speed on what is out there these days. Didja know Rivian runs 5 VMs? And AAOS [Android Auto Operating System]? Now you do! [Why do I know these things, or why their "custom silicon" is just AArch64 stuff, is because I am a nerd, not because I care a lot about driving])

CC: @cwebber@social.coop

@alienghic But some of the most idealistic free software orgs and communities I know failed to take a stand, took a middle ground position that, effectively, served as endorsement.

@cwebber I think the biggest problem that isn't an externality1 is the legal one for a lot of FOSS projects. AI generated code is either:

• Someone else's copyrighted work
• Public domain

Every FOSS project with a copyleft license is cutting its own feet off by using code they can't hold the copyright to.

1 The externalities are honestly the biggest problems, but lots of people refuse to acknowledge them.

@cwebber Exactly my problem. I wanted people to take a stand 2 years ago. I was called a Luddite. I was told to keep politics aside, to not worry about copyright concerns since those lead nowhere. I have been asking the FSF/GNU folks, and others to take a stand....but everybody seems rather cowardly or hesitant. This is _our_ fight, it's a wilful destruction of all things we've built for decades, why we are being reckless and slow on this, is beyond me.

We could've hard banned all slop 2 years ago too. Only if we could analyze things properly, and realize the danger early on. I am neurotically worrying about this everyday now but I am not sure what to do or say. But I really think it's a symptom of free/libre software community not being militant and vigilant enough politically. The whole "apolitical" almost ignorant attitude of "it's just a tool" is to be blamed for this. It's _not_ "just a tool", every tool is born from and within politics and it must be criticized as such. Sure, if you so much love LLMs for their architecture in deep learning go make communal and eco-friendly versions of it, but who cares about LLMs? It's our public software, our dearest pieces of software that we've relied on for years, that's what's important.

Honestly, part of me feels if we had a much more robust and politically active front of free/libre software movement, more groups like Autistici/Inventati, we wouldn't have been in such a situation. At the very least, we'd have an united front in this fight against corporations. We have lost the solidarity, hopefully we can form it back sometime.

@cwebber absolutely. but even if you could fully review and understand the code, even if you could maintain it, even if you did "use ai responsibly", you can only do that because you have the expertise. When all the experts are retired, and none of the new joiners have those same skills, because they never learnt the intricacies you only learn by being embedded in a project… what do you do then?

@cwebber turns out the bazaar turned into a strip mall

@cwebber big organizations always fail. F(L)OSS should be community led, first and foremost

@cwebber I thought that one of the main advantages of FOSS was that anyone could inspect the code and make sure it didn't have security issues, data privacy issues, etc. I don't know enough to do that myself, but I was always comforted by the idea that others were checking the code of well-known FOSS projects.

If even the people making the software don't fully understand the code anymore, is that advantage still there?

@cwebber yeah, I just feel so constantly worried about the loose sand we're introducing into our infrastructure and ecosystem.

Which is what this feels like. I don't feel the foundations or the entire structure will be sound anymore.

It's crumbling.

@cwebber That’s the kind of situation where having a functionally FSF really could have helped.

@cwebber sadly this is all very much in line with the criticisms i've had for the movement for a good 11 or so years now, i just would have rather been wrong about it all. as much as foss attracts individuals who really do walk the walk and talk the talk, this is a movement that has generally failed to take a collective stand about much of anything beyond the four freedoms of free things for nerds of privilege.

@cwebber I expected to eventually become the Greybeard* That Knows How It All Worked if I live that long, I did not consider that it might happen before 40 and because of things our industry did to itself by choice