@strypey
It turns out that SMTP/IMAP was not that good of a protocol for IM after all. Maybe they should have dedicated their resources to build something similar on top of an open standard dedicated to chat, contributing protocol extensions if necessary. :-P
Reinventing the wheel is fun and I can't blame anyone for doing so. But sometimes, we are doing Big (surveillance) Tech a favor by splitting our efforts. Anyway, I'll build a DC/#XMPP gateway if I ever get a person to talk to in there.
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@strypey 1/x
You're not alone, others on the forums with the same use case are also asking these questions. It's possible where the devs want or need to go can no longer hold onto the past because the world has become a very hostile place.
What do I mean? Regimes such as China and Russia are being reported as blocking Deltachat based on fingerprints and port use. Good old port 25 is the Achilles heal. Email ports are just too easy to target for any regime.
@strypey 2/x
As a chatmail relay operator, I'm paying attention to the internal changes - some of the newest changes active on relays are to use port 443 Nginx proxy routes to deliver mail from one relay to another, only falling back to traditional email ports if needed. I see it working in my relay logs.
I think this is the anti-censorship route forward being worked on; while the relays can use IMAP and SMTP for historic resilience, the network routes are being tunneled over HTTPS traffic.
@strypey 3/3
This makes the future needs of design (if they keep going this route with every other connection type) simply incompatible with using traditional email services.
It is a user pain point right now, and I think their messaging has been rather nonexistent as to the big plan - just upgrading the app from say 2.53 to 2.57 broke people. That's a 3.x release right there in semver standards, the DC devs are playing fast and loose with their users and it shows.
@nokke
> Good old port 25 is the Achilles heal. Email ports are just too easy to target for any regime
This too seems like a good argument for using XMPP instead, or especially Matrix, which is a web protocol. So I presume it would be harder to fingerprint than either email or XMPP.
> the DC devs are playing fast and loose with their users
That's my impression too. But what I'm wondering is, why?
@strypey
It turns out that SMTP/IMAP was not that good of a protocol for IM after all. Maybe they should have dedicated their resources to build something similar on top of an open standard dedicated to chat, contributing protocol extensions if necessary. :-P
Reinventing the wheel is fun and I can't blame anyone for doing so. But sometimes, we are doing Big (surveillance) Tech a favor by splitting our efforts. Anyway, I'll build a DC/#XMPP gateway if I ever get a person to talk to in there.
So my question is; why would we use ChatMail for messaging apps instead of XMPP or Matrix?
I'm not trying to dunk on DeltaChat or its developers here. On the contrary, I'm truly grateful to them for the work the work put into it over the years, and impressed by what they've achieved.
I'm genuinely curious to know what the advantages are. What kinds of specific use cases ChatMail can handle better than preexisting decentralised chat protocols, and why/ how.
(2/2)
> why would we use ChatMail for messaging apps instead of XMPP or Matrix?
there are several reasons!
first of all, it is the app closer to WhatsApp appearance that has a multi-platform client with feature parity, you just have to tell people "install Delta Chat" the story is much more complicated with XMPP
also when moving from one device to another, with Delta Chat you can import backups from android into desktop etc. this is just not possible in xmpp since backups are not compatible across clients
matrix server is super expensive/bloated, while you can host +1k users in the cheapest VPS or Raspberry Pi you find
in matrix and xmpp clients if the server goes down or your server account gets removed you have to start all over in a new profile, you lose all your chats, messages, contacts, etc. with delta chat you can easily migrate servers without losing anything, your profile lives in your device and is owned by you!
you can also use several servers at the same time with Delta Chat meaning if one goes down it doesn't matter you keep receiving messages, this alone set it in a completely different league compared to matrix or xmpp
in matrix a lot of group metadata lives in the server, and in xmpp if the server where you created the group goes down, the group is lost, not even people in other servers can keep chatting in the group, is a big centralization problem
ofc, software and protocols can change, but this is just the reality today, I would not use xmpp or matrix for my family chat when what I get with Delta Chat is a much nicer user experience and much more resilient
@strypey probably the reason your family/friends didn't stuck with it was because they where using it in the pre-chatmail times??? using it with a classic email account really sucks
chatmail mail is still just email servers but optimized to offer an experience similar to IM platforms
as of why not xmpp etc., well it is a historical reason, what protocol is used internally is not the main driver for users but the features set, DC is made in a way the protocol could be change
@arcanechat
> as of why not xmpp etc., well it is a historical reason, what protocol is used internally is not the main driver for users but the features set
Protocol choice determines who you can talk to using the app. It's hardly unimportant. It also determines which features can be supported. Eg both Matrix and XMPP have ways of handling voice/video, which AFAIK ChatMail lacks
> DC is made in a way the protocol could be change
So why stick with ChatMail? That's the question I'm asking.
> So why stick with ChatMail? That's the question I'm asking.
because it works, and it works very good, the chatmail hosters are very happy, they need to do zero maintenance, accounts are created and removed automatically, server storage is super low, same for RAM and CPU usage
it is just not worth the effort porting Delta Chat to use XMPP because in fact it probably only make it worse than now, and anyways it will not be compatible with other xmpp clients
(1/2)
@strypey DeltaChat has a user experience that trumps alternative decentralized E2EE apps.
Other Matrix/XMPP apps could improve - but when? Many people miss group moderation in DeltaChat .. but maybe that's the old paradigm, you could also filter client-side if you don't like something instead of deciding for others...
Also DeltaChat currently depends on one company owned by one person (according to public CoC extracts) ... I would prefer a steward-owned or foundation for the project.
@tijl
> DeltaChat has a user experience that trumps alternative decentralized E2EE apps
How?
> you could also filter client-side if you don't like something instead of deciding for others
So ... we all have to individually filter spam and abuse, instead of having group admins trusted to do it for the group? I can think of a *lot* of ways that goes wrong.
> I would prefer a steward-owned or foundation for the project
At least for the protocol. XMPP and Matrix both have foundations for that.
@strypey
DeltaChat is nicer for non-technical users (no keys to mishandle / sessions to verify etc all abstracted away).
Agree that client-side filtering would need some sort of web-of-trust (ie if you block someone I would probably just auto-follow you).
Agree that minimally the protocol needs independant stewardship.
@strypey If you already build and make self-hosted email servers, it is a no brainer.They just need to figure out mod/group controls.
@oemb1905
> If you already build and make self-hosted email servers, it is a no brainer
What is, and why?
Using Delta Chat, which was your question. Delta Chat only requires an email server, so if you already have one because you build and make them as part of your work, it is a no brainer to use DC and benefit from self-hosted E2EE and easy comms. You get full privacy and control and E2EE - that's a huge benefit over the other platforms you mentioned. The only drawbacks are:
1) You don't self-host so now you don't get the privacy and/or control
2) Delta Chat lacks mature group / moderation controls
3) Delta Chat lacks proper integrated video chat, but/and it does do Jitsi
4) Delta Chat is slightly weaker on meta data leaks than some other offerings (e.g., Simplex)
But, as per your question ... if you already have a self-hosted email server and domain ready to do, DC is a no brainer for an immediate switch and likely a net positive for privacy, control, and E2EE.
