Discussion
Thank you everyone for all your interesting thoughts and pointers re: the crisis that is web browsers.
A few general followups collected in one place:
1. "Servo is the future, we/you should target effort there" - I'm finding this argument more and more convincing as the line count of the amount of code I'm tallying that I'd like to be removed from FF keeps going up.
I am somewhat amazed/shocked by the rapid introduction (and the code size) of recent "features"
@sarahjamielewis I'll start with the disclaimer “I'm an end user, not a developer. The closest thing to source code I've ever written was the most basic of GW-BASIC stuff in high school, and before many or most of you were born.”
That said, I'm very happy with Firefox. I've been running it alone on both desktop and my Android phones for the last ca. 12 years.
I've been a part of discussions, most recently in TuxDigital's Discord community, and the takeaway I have is basically: ↓
A subtractive approach to browser dev (whether soft or hard fork) can only go so far.
Ultimately the root problem, as many noted:
2. "web standards have become obscenely complicated - for various reasons - and developing a browser necessitates larger team efforts which perpetuates more complication."
There are two ways to respond to that: attempt to turn the tide (and try to avoid getting swept up in it) or abandon the modern web in favour of something that allows smaller browser to blossom.
@sarahjamielewis personally I don't want a smaller browser, but instead a modular browser. Allow me to turn on and off features and install my own engines for ES, CSS, ad tracking etc. Browser should ship with 1 flavor of all the standard features working within standard interfaces.
I feel like it would end up being a bit of a security nightmare, and most people would just use the chrome defaults anyway, but it would allow for enterprises and individuals with specific privacy/security needs.
@sarahjamielewis I find it totally irritating that you basically need to update your browser on a weekly basis because you constantly stumble over websites which don't render correctly because the dev HAD TO implement the latest shit and cutting edge framework.
What's wrong with plain HTML and a little CSS?
I still remember the days when a browser fit on a 3.5" floppydisk and did every thing you asked for.
I have the kind of life and personality that really gets into the latter (I have written at least one gemini/mini web browser, and I will almost certainly write another https://mastodon.social/@sarahjamielewis/112928301142039640)
(One of the many reasons I am not the person to manage a general purpose browser project)
But I do recognize that while much could be replaced with standalone clients (to the despise of many) it would leave a very big gap between what we have and what is needed.
To make clear my reasoning behind my thoughts, a little story:
I made the decision to adopt veganism well over a decade ago. One evening I had a realization that my values were not aligned with my actions, I did not like that feeling, so I did something about it.
I've recently realized that I'm feeling that same kind of dissonance again.
Firefox, or any modern web browser, has progressed to a point where using it has began to come into conflict with some of the deepest values I hold.
@sarahjamielewis "dissonance" is a good word. I've been feeling that a bit with eating meat.
Because of this I am not overly concerned with appeals to notions like "market share" or "average users" as an end to themselves.
I firmly believe that this software, in it's manufacture, in the way that "features" are exposed to the people who use it, in the philosophical direction of it's roadmap is unethical; it is introducing harm into the world.
And my first priority and motivation is to minimize or entirely eliminate my participation in those systems in whatever way I practically can.
@sarahjamielewis Yeah I'm pretty impressed how far I've personally managed (before burning out) with the subtractive approach, gives me hope for that approach!
@sarahjamielewis I think focusing on Servo is a mistake, unless you think you can get together a full time staff of engineers over a long period - that is what Mozilla and Google have, as does Microsoft (and they got out of the engine game).
Otherwise, we just have a toy browser and have to go use the mainstream Firefox based browser anyway, and you keep the same duplication of effort that you were trying to initially solve.
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