Discussion
I am usually celebratory when targets are hit inside Russia, but this morning I am not.
During the night, Ukraine has managed to strike several targets, which is great. But it appears there are fires in two different Wildberries logistics centers. One in Kotovsk, Tambov, and one in Elektrostal, Moscow.
The problem is, these are 24/7 operations and young civilian workers work in these facilities. Some of whom may be hoping for a better life without Putin.
Early reports claim that workers…
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@randahl No fuckin mercy. Every killed russian is good russian. Btw key those fuckers feel three war they started.
Attacks against infrastructure must be proportional to its military significance.
I understand that Wildberries is a logistic hub also for russian military, but is the collateral damage to civilians inevitable?
And there is a reason about not attacking civilian targets that it is not humanitarian, but military: attacking civilians directly will increase their resolve to support their own military, because they start to think they have only this choice: kill or be killed.
@randahl Russian army got caught multiple times transporting weapons to the front hidden exactly as this "company". It was walid military target long ago. Same as some skycrapers in Moscow are walid targets as drones are operated fron them or an AD is olaced on them.
@randahl
It's obvious that Ukrainians will not have peace and freedom until they inflict massive economic stress on Russia. This is how they can do it.
There was a peaceful solution available every day for 12 years which Putin feels no need for because ordinary Russians keep working, keep paying taxes, keep running the war machine.
What do you think Ukraine should target instead?
@notsoloud I do not know to what extent Ukraine has deliberately targeted Wildberries. The southern target appears to have been hit by Russia's own air defences. The target in Moscow appears to have been hit deliberately by Ukrainian drones.
All am saying is, it appears tonight's attacks have caused numerous civilian casualties, and that is not helpful to the cause of ending the Putin regime.
I think you can't say for sure if it was deliberate as long as you can't follow the exact flight path of the drone. There can always be EW causing a drone to hit an unintended target as we've seen several times.
We should be cautious about pointing the finger.
@randahl
I think it might actually be helpful, but I'm not sure.
I also think it's strategic overreach to try ending Putin's regime in Russia. Let's end it in Ukraine first and see where it goes.
Depends what the warehouses were doing - were they operating in support of russia's war.
Hitting a missile factory and killing civilian workers therein would be justified. Hitting a dairy factory would not be.
@randahl How many civilians has Russia killed?
Civilians die in wars. Russia shouldn't have started this one.
… have died in these warehouse fires. On telegram there is footage of very young Russians running screaming through the burning halls.
While I understand how some may at first see this as a victory, I would caution that not every Russian is a Putin supporter.
Civilians dying in Russia is in no way helpful to the cause of bringing down Putin and his regime. If anything, it gives Putin a chance to rally his people by presenting these fires as proof that Ukrainians are terrorists.
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@randahl I noticed that quite a few apparent muslims were evacuating. It indicates that a lot of migrant workers are employed to support Russia's war. Maybe it's a message for them to get out of there. It's not safe.
This person found evidence that they also sell war-related stuff:
Legitimate target!
@randahl The difference between a dictatorship and a democratic nation is that the latter cares for civiliens, even the opponets' civilliens people. We learned that from the allied bombing of Dresden at the end WW2. That created the law of warfare.
However, I think Ukaine has largely obeid that law and should continue to do so, although the Russians don't. There are lot of legal targets in Russia to destroy.
@randahl It’s called the fog of war for a reason. Some would say complicity equals guilt. Ultimately this is all Putin’s fault. Whether Ukraine sanctions trigger fires that cause civilian casualties or not is irrelevant with regard to propaganda. Putin will make up stories to sell the public either way.
@randahl
I think you're projecting your own mindset on the Russians, but you have a vastly different background.
Russians are trained to stay out of politics and live their everyday lives. As long as they can do that, Putin is safe. To endanger Putin's war effort, disrupt their normality. The fuel blockade is a great step in that direction. Everyone's packages burning works too. Or mobilization. Or internet outages.
Putin does NOT want some kind of war spirit awakening, he keeps jailing the people who are trying to make it happen.
@anderspuck made an excellent video about all this:
@randahl
Can Putin stop this any time he wants to?
#PutinsFault
@randahl I tend to agree with that. However, Russia is killing innocent civilians, including (very) young children and Putin doesn't blink. He just pushed for more destruction, especially in Eastern Ukraine. Total disregard for civilians already in a difficult position. Putin can only really be stopped in 2 ways: He's dead/killed, or the population lynches him with the same result.
From the young people that died (if so) some would probably already be picked to be sent to the front, where they probably would survive for more than half an hour. The consequence of that would be another wave of 'picked' workers being sent to the front. Putin couldn't care less. Only if things get really personal for him, he might finally blink. It's harsh, but I prefer Russians to die over Ukrainians. Wildberries is located close to the Kremlin. I'm sure Putin's aids sanitized the view from Putin's windows to avoid him seeing the smoke. So he's still ignorant of what happened. He will get reports stating that minor industrial facilities were hit. He will order more missile strikes on Ukrainian civilians.
Perhaps this same reasoning can be communicated to those Russians who are deliberately targeting civilians in Ukraine? 🤷♂️
In the new realties of warfare with UCAV's then logistics infrastructure is unfortunately a target.
Civilian business are supporting the Russian military. It will be interesting to see if Ukraine releases any further information on why this was specifically targeted.
Yes, it's deeply sad that anyone anywhere has to experience the horrors of war, be injured or killed.
But Ukraine didn't start this war. Time to shift the blame firmly to Putin and those who support him.
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