@DavidM_yeg roads aren't free to use. Unless you are a pedestrian or a cyclist, access to the roads is under license, and in most countries you pay some form of charge for road access. In the UK this is Vehicle Excuse Duty, which is wrongly often called "road tax". Etc...
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@quixoticgeek adding 3 more of my own:
- With an Aztec ticket, like an Interrail or one bought from DB, you have to scan it on an NS gate. This is counter-intuitive if you want to go/went on a different provider's train.
- If you scan your Aztec at a wrong time, it might be considered invalid, and will be cached as invalid at a time it should be valid on.
- Some gates are green from both sides unless the sensor is tripped on the other side, say, the entire wall of gates in Zwolle on Stationsplein Zuid side. If there is a large number of passengers on one side trying to go through, say, morning rush commuters going from a train to the bus station, succes finding a gate to pass the other way.
@quixoticgeek Fare gates in Japan (at least when I visited 20 years ago) work differently. Their default state is open - if you try to pass without scanning a ticket, it closes. So the throughput is insane.
All systems have errors, but with this one they decided a few people getting through without paying is worth making it slower for everyone else. The default position is that most people are not criminals, unlike these types of gate which come from the point of view that everyone is potentially a criminal and given half a chance will defraud anything.
The ticket scanners were amazing too: two different sizes of ticket, you could put them in upside down, back to front, even sideways and they'd still read it in a fraction of a second.
@quixoticgeek great thread, everyone working on these things or planning NS stations should have to read it.
Bonus annoyance for non-locals: some of these gates stand next to slightly different ones which will check you in to another transport provider (e.g. the Amsterdam metro) so you will think you have a ticket and still get fined on the train.
@quixoticgeek As someone used to UK gatelines, something about the design of these ones makes them feel very cramped and stressful. Mostly to do with the gate height I think?
@quixoticgeek bonus points when you try to exit the station with your DB (ICE) ticket
@quixoticgeek I would much rather have these gates than the "ticket control" thugs roaming the Oslo metro. You don't know how good you have it.
@millie interesting that I've had two replies about the Oslo metro. One saying how good it is to not have gates and just use goons. And one moaning about the goons... When I was in Oslo I cycled everywhere...
@quixoticgeek Yea idk why they're going on about, nobody in Oslo likes the ticket control guys. They're extremely rude and threatening. I really wish we had Japan's system.
@quixoticgeek Beware the (The!) alternative! https://aus.social/@augustusbrown/116056539132449510
@quixoticgeek We almost got stuck with something like this in Oslo too. Fortunately the project was a total failure and now we just use an app for tickets. No gates. Just random ticket inspections with fairly high fines.
@quixoticgeek great rant, tnx for this one!
@quixoticgeek After having read this thread, I now understand why Belgium wants to install these in train stations. They're the perfect amount of awful to make Belgian public transport even worse. And that certainly isn't an easy thing to do. Well done for building something SO FUCKING AWFUL that it can actually make Belgium worse.
@quixoticgeek oh we were stuck by these in Amsterdam, couldn’t figure out how to get in/out
@quixoticgeek If you will permit, I will take this opportunity to compare/contrast with the BART fare gates in SF that have also caused me considerable frustration (although it seems these are much worse).
@iris @quixoticgeek all of these wouldn't be a problem if transit was free.
@quixoticgeek because we are attempting to solve a sociopolitical issue with a technical implementation.
If fare evasion is such a big deal and ridership is high, simply tax everyone and make rides free.
If fare evasion is such a big deal and ridership is high, simply tax everyone and make rides free.
@Nimbius666 Yep. tho fare evasion is seen as a precursor to other crimes and antisocial behaviour, which is why they try to control it. Free public transport is of course the solution
@quixoticgeek omg I was so baffled by these gates as a tourist and felt lousy about it. Sounds like it was not entirely my fault.
@stylus not your fault. It's just bad design.
@quixoticgeek @stylus nah it's super tourist unfriendly.
@quixoticgeek so many parallels to some of the UK barriers too. Also one of the bus ticket machine manufacturers has put the NFC reader right below the barcode reader, which causes all sorts of issues with scanning mobile tickets if the app doesn't turn off the NFC.
I see the same issue with wide gates here too. At least places like Glasgow Queen Street have two wide gates so you can have one way operation. Though still not enough of them.
Why fares should just be eliminated.
If you look really closely on the inside panel of the gate dividers, you'll see some little red dots. These are part of a presence detector. If you trip one of these the gate stops responding. So, say you are traveling with a child and you have them ahead of you as you try to check them through the gate. They trip the sensor and the gate doesnt work. The same often happens when people put their suitcase in front of them. I often find passengers stuck trying to get through the gate like this
2/n
@quixoticgeek Those red dots fucked us up while traveling. The whole thing is hostile.
@quixoticgeek As someone who travels with a kid often by train this is simply not true.
@MisterMaker you're incredibly lucky. I see this happen almost weekly.
@quixoticgeek this is the most evil anti-feature I have ever heard of. I always put my luggage in front of me because if I don't, the gates will close on it and separate me from it.
You'll notice that one of the gates is wider than the other. For every platform (but not every gateline), one gate is wider than the others. This is so wheelchair users, larger passengers, people with bikes or lots of luggage can get through. This one wide gate is set up bidirectionally. What often happens is someone who could use any gate, tries to come through the wide gate, when a user who can only use the wide gate is trying to get through the other way. This causes tension among users.
3/n
@quixoticgeek And this. Similar setup in SF. When I am traveling with a bike (my default), I usually have to wait for people completely capable of using any of the other gates to go through the one gate I fit through with my bike. I get very frustrated about it.
And when I do get through, the gate usually closes on the back half of my bike no matter how quickly I try to move through. Sometimes I have to wrestle it free, and I may or may not do as much damage to the gate as possible when that happens.
@quixoticgeek usually, the wide gate is where the guiding line will lead blind NS customers. For me, the bi-directional gates are almost impossible to get through during rush hour. I memorize the location and direction of the ordinary gates for the stations that I often use. But even those arrangements can be changed. But there is a braille/tactile thingy on the check in surface, so I know I'm in Sighted People's thoughts.
@anantagd except I've also seen passengers who use a cane trip the sensors with their cane, so the gate locks up on them, with no audible information for what's happened. It's truly awful design.
@quixoticgeek proper procedure: first do the check in, then the cane. My instinct always is "cane first¨, so it takes so unlearning. The haphazard accessibility of NS is a good example of how they do design.
@anantagd i was on a GVB metro a couple of years ago when their storm troopers were doing a ticket check. I asked to see ID. Which they really objected to. They held the card such that with the rocking of the train I could focus on it. So I tried to hold it, thinking I can at least check the braille (I'm a sighted person, but I tried to learn braille out of curiosity). Wow did the ticket storm trooper not like that. Even when I explained why I needed to touch it... 1/2
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When people have annoyed me doing this when travelling with my bike, I've sometimes pushed my wheel forward slightly to trip the sensor to block the gate from working in the hope the other traveller will bugger off. This issue could be resolved by installing a second wide gate per line, and making them unidirectional. But that would in theory reduce gateline capacity. Which is already pretty awful.
Why so? Well you see that round circle on the top? That's a nfc, and qr reader. And it sucks
4/n
@quixoticgeek further visual indicators that the wide gate is ONLY for people who need it is also an option. As is having two bidirectional wide gates. Or all wide gates.
@quixoticgeek the BART gates are impassable in BOTH directions for a brief interval after somebody uses them in either direction, as far as I can tell. So if you have to wait for a foot passenger to exit through the single wide gate (which you probably needed to circumnavigate the platform to reach in the first place), you then also have to wait for the gate to reset to bidirectional-standby mode.
@quixoticgeek Also the scanning thingy is located in a different place for the wide gates than for the narrow ones. People will put their card where the thingy usually is, which still exists but doesn't work, and not where the thingy actually is. Which may be to their left or to their right depending on the gate, also.
Passengers will try to scan an object to gain permission to pass the gate. Originally this was just an OV chipkaart. A simple NFC card based on MyFare classic. But, cos the people who design and implement these design abominations aren't the people who use them. They decided that you should be able to scan a QR code from your ticket to use the barrier. Which is slow, requires almost perfect alignment, and requires you scan the right qr code. Which is a pain as some ticket types have >1 qr.
5/n
@quixoticgeek This is an affront to all sentient beings.
Then you run into the problem that some phones when they get near the scanner realise it's an NFC reader, and switch from the PDF ticket you had open to try and use your phone wallet thingy. This then results in a passenger, usually with lots of baggage, stood blocking a gate faffing with their phone trying to get the gate to recognise a ticket to let them out. Or, in the worst case, cos they have now allowed people to travel with any card that works for contactless payments...
6/n
@quixoticgeek Yeah, last time I took an international train it triggered this. I had exit again with contactless payment and then retry scanning the qr code with the phone as far away from the thing as I could manage to avoid triggering nfc.
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@quixoticgeek Oh, this happened to me just last week. My phone would not keep the QR code on the screen. I was only able to resolve this by sending the PDF to a fellow traveler's phone asking them to hand me their phone back over the gate. I was likely blocking the gate for 3 minutes until we had resolved this mess. I am not from the Netherlands, so I don't know how often this happens, but I was wondering what the "proper solution" for this issue is.
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@quixoticgeek
Had this problem twice last Friday when using this gate for the first time with a QR code from the NS @ns_online app.
It's such a broken design, amazing.
Then, in a totally unrelated note, finding the ticket in the NS app for your current journey is also ridiculous. It's not even reachable from the main screen, there's a menu item AT THE BOTTOM of the app called "more" and then another menu called "tickets".
Then, from the ticket you cannot view your journey details. Again, amazingly broken.
@quixoticgeek I first complained about the NFC triggering phone payments back in 2017 (when we came back from CCC with a DB QR code in my email). they still have NS employees opening the turnstiles for people eight years later.
... When the phone switches from your pdf qr code to the phone wallet, it scans your card, charges you €20 for a checkout without a check-in, and let's you through. Bravo, great design. FFS
Then you get users who intend to use the phone as a payment device. These passengers tend to present as someone who's queued to get to the gate, then act totally surprised they now need to scan their device. They then stand there, faffing with their phone trying to bring up the wallet with the right card
7/n
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