@quixoticgeek ...yes, but not a *direct* consequence. When people say "X causes Y", the implication is that the causal chain is short between X and Y.
I could say "stopping free school dinners increases crime", which is true as a weak effect due to opportunity limitation, but the consequence is years after the cause, and several chain links down the road... so I wouldn't say that without being clear that I mean indirectly and in the indefinite future.
Post
Replies:
0
@quixoticgeek I remember the public debate in Australia that preceeded the introduction of mandatory helmet laws. My mother was opposed, but it seemed like most people in the community were in favour. I was at an age where my political awareness was just developing.
@quixoticgeek the relevant question is: why do people in _cars_ wear a helmet only when racing? Shouldn't they always wear one? By law maybe?
I so much agree. Not mentioning, I know you consider it shallow, but people are such, what about a lady who doesn't want to destroy her hairdo? Does it mean that bicycling is suddenly not for a professional women? Suddenly the bicycling is *inconvenient* and it is more comfortable to drive a car.
So on that basis we should relax seat belt laws for drivers so that there is a larger pool of suitable organ donors?
Maybe motor cyclists and horse riders could be excused helmet laws also?
Your arguement isn't logical.
People don't want to cycle because the don't want to, not because of helmet requirements. It's either inconvenient, unsafe or they have other health conditions or are lazy or whatever excuses they give.
I think not. What I wrote about ladies, hairdos, and inconvenience: there are no limitations imposed on passengers of cars/drivers by wearing a seat belt (or not much).
Ditto for cyclists wearing proper PPE 🙂
@simonzerafa @mcepl do we have to show you the hazard triangle? And the place PPE has in it? PPE is the last resort, start by doing everything you can go remove the hazard. That means proper cycle infrastructure, and where ever possible, banning cars.
@simonzerafa you have made false equivalences. Cycling is an undisputed social good. Having more people cycle is better for society. Anything that reduces that, is therefore bad for society. Driving, motorcycles, they are not the same, and in the case of cars, they are an undisputed social negative. Society at large would be better off if we banned cars.
I'm not saying we stop people choosing to wear a cycle helmet. I'm saying we shouldn't make it a legal requirement. This is a key point.
@quixoticgeek "helmet legislation actually costing society more from lost health gains than saved from injury prevention"
@kennergf @quixoticgeek @vaurora Helmet laws have very little to do with safety and everything with saving money on road infrastructure, while imposing few restrictions on motorists and making cyclists somehow responsible for their own safety on the roads.
Policy that fits perfectly with the neoliberal “paradise” that we’re all currently living in.
@quixoticgeek Bike helmets are an absolutely retarded do-gooder idea. Proponents try to make a comparison with seat-belts, ignoring that the entire principle of a bicycle is it's basically a sandal - you put it on and go, you don't climb into it and travel at 100kmh.
@quixoticgeek We were lookign for an article covering the Australian 😜 on that matter, citing studies; Thank you!
@quixoticgeek Bike travel in the US is at the mercy of auto traffic, making accidents (and serious head injury) a much higher risk.
@quixoticgeek O.M.G. people en masse are just...... I mean, you could put in a helmet rule AND simultaneously increase the quality and quantity of public transport and biking infrastructure to mitigate the life-shattering inconvenience of wearing a helmet.
I don't dispute the correlation - I just think it's toddler level petty.
@GinevraCat @quixoticgeek I agree. If a helmet law is what stands in the way of someone bicycling, was there much hope to begin with?
@nantucketlit @GinevraCat @quixoticgeek A helmet law will pretty much destroy any bike-share scheme, to start with - unless you keep a bike helmet in your bag?
@quixoticgeek did you mean Type-2 Diabetes?
@quixoticgeek Nice example of unintended consequences.
@quixoticgeek
Obvs.
Also the makers of large SUV trucks and their oily and other friends love cycling to be, and be seen to be, dangerous.
Largely from that proximate cause.
@quixoticgeek I’ve been in a bike accident where I got hit by a car. Wear a helmet or don’t ride… at least in the US.
Is there less chance of a head injury while riding a bike elsewhere in the West?
@oberstenzian yes. Here in a civilised country with proper cycling infrastructure...
@quixoticgeek I had a bike accident that broke one wheel and cracked my helmet. Without the helmet, I wouldn't have gotten up off the pavement and limped home to bike another day. I will always wear a helmet, and strongly advise everyone to wear one. #biking #helmet
@jackcole advise away. Just don't mandate it.
It was hard to get folks to use seat belts too.
The sane thing to do would be to make helmets mandatory for driving cars.
@quixoticgeek old policy old thought process helmet areas. Ofc
@quixoticgeek We had the same argument when the wearing of seat belts in cars became mandatory. Warning for heart, lung, and other stuff.
Thanks to seat belts we have less serious injuries and fatalities.
We had the same argument with masks ("can't breathe").
Thanks to masks people still can breathe and are alive.
@quixoticgeek I've yet to have a conversation with a paramedic who thinks you're better off not wearing a helmet. I commute by bike, have had my share of minor and major accidents. The only reason I'm not in hospital regularly and have a potato for a brain is because of my helmet.
@macattackmicmac as someone who has crewed an ambulance, who dated a doctor, and has looked into this. There's a difference between the individual level and the population level. There's also a difference between legal requirement and free choice.
@quixoticgeek I would rather the government focus on making everything else safer and more comfortable for bike riders, than trying to repeal laws which would inevitably be re instated once cycling has no viable alternative.
@macattackmicmac but Ireland isn't repealing anything. They are imposing more restrictions on cyclists
@quixoticgeek I didn't look into what the original impetus was for the post, but rather just what was in this post. Given that context I still think everyone should wear a helmet, but again the government should focus on structural changes rather than passing another law.
@quixoticgeek Most of the research and debate seems to show australia (which has had mandatory helmet laws since I was about 10), and shows the increase in heart disease etc since then as proof.
I'm sure drive-through and home-delivery fast food restaurants being introduced around the same time was just a coincidence, and didn't affect things at all.
@quixoticgeek Another level of helmets and personal safety is how helmets affect drivers behaviour towards cyclist.
Series of measurements with distance sensors in Germany showed that cyclist that wore helmets or safety wests would be overtaken at a much closer range than cyclist without. It's speculated that this behaviour is caused by the perception that wearing a helmet means you take care of your own safety and require less precaution.
@quixoticgeek as a cyclist/commuter myself I'm with you on the necessity for a better biking infrastructure. However, I could never genuinely recommend anyone to go without a helmet. It's not only cars who pose risk to a cyclist, but other cyclists and pedestrians as well. The amount of times I had a mini heart attack just because someone unexpectedly and sharply brakes or a child runs out of nowhere in a bike lane 🥲 and I have seen the consequences for "only" bike-on-bike collision. Safety measures like wearing a helmet are very much a learned thing. If a portion of culture adopts a behaviour, over time it normalises and stops being viewed as inconvenience, especially for younger generations growing up with it. I'm sorry it discourages some people to take on this mode of transportation, however, head trauma can kill you much faster than higher cholesterol or diabetes. Let's be safe out there.
@hostia I would never suggest someone should or should not wear a helmet. I would recommend people make a reasoned choice. A free choice for each individual.
I even wear a bike helmet sometimes.
For both bicycle, and motorcycle, I'm not in favor of helmet laws, but I always ride with a helmet. No matter if it's a pedestrian, or a rock, or a vehicle the causes you to fall, the ground is always there. Gravity always has its way. A helmet is cheap insurance in case anything happens.
@quixoticgeek Could the correlation have anything to do with fewer people dying from significant brain injuries sustained from helmetless cycling?
