@2legged if you could explain to me without the judgement and aggression how their quote stands for accessibility I would appreciate it because I cannot see it at all.
To me it reads as "nobody mentioned accessibility needs so don't bother."
Discussion
Loading...
@alexisbushnell I support your goal, but I agree with the criticisms of Open Dyslexic. I (not dyslexic) find it hard to read and off-puttingly ugly. So I share the concerns of your tutors.
You need a font that tries to meet the needs of both dyslexic and non-dyslexIc readers. @vic's suggested Atkinson Hyperlegible is great for me, but I can't evaluate how it works for dyslexic people.
I am unimpressed with both sides. The opening post shows no sign of either party looking for a win-win.
@2legged I'm struggling to install Atkinson Hyperlegible in NextCloud at the moment frustratingly.
My issue is more the dismissal of accessibility as a thing to consider which was followed up in the latest email which said "as your scenario doesn't mention anything about needing to be accessible or audience members having autism or any disabilities (I think to make it easier on students), it is best not to make more confusion."
Accessibility should be standard.
Wow, @alexisbushnell! Wow!
Your quote from that email DOES NOT dismiss accessibility. On the contrary, it stands FOR accessibility, by raising other accessibility issues.
Your blatant misrepresentation of the quoted text has destroyed my trust in your description of your tutor's initial comments.
I think it's great that you emphasise accessibility for dyslexics. But I find it very sad that you seem unable or unwilling to consider other accessibility needs.
You urgently need a new attitude.
@2legged if you could explain to me without the judgement and aggression how their quote stands for accessibility I would appreciate it because I cannot see it at all.
To me it reads as "nobody mentioned accessibility needs so don't bother."
@alexisbushnell I read it as a helpful reminder that "accessibility is not a criterion in this particular exercise, and since the path you have proposed seriously degrades the presentation for the overwhelming majority of readers, you risk reducing your marks. Please don't do yourself harm"
The big problem here is that you seem unable/unwilling to acknowledge that the font you propose is horrendous for non-dyskexic people.
@2legged but the exercise is to create a presentation. Part of giving a presentation is ensuring it is as accessible as possible.
It is doing me harm to not be able to do the right and legal thing of ensuring the presentation I submit is accessible.
I am not dyslexic but I find the font helpful.
I am happy to switch to a different font, I am working on installing Atkinson Hyperlegible as others have suggested.
1 more replies (not shown)
I will say as a legally blind blind person with less than 10 degrees of flaky vision (strongest prescription available) - Arial rounded MT Bold size 18 is the easiest to read on computer. Paper needs to be larger.
I don't find the dyslexic fonts easy to read.
I understand they are touted to be great. They just aren't for me!
I went back and looked up those fonts.
Atkinson Hyperlegible looks thin and spidery to me. And it has waving legs where it needs to be straight (notice on the "q" tail). At least on the photos I could see.
The Open Dyslexic font does remind me of a learning to write font. I would find all the extra odd thicknesses scattered in the letters to be very distracting. It needs to be uniformly thick, so you aren't stopping on every single letter trying to guess what it is.
I have enough trouble with constant movement and things not looking like what I expect, that I wouldn't likely read something in either font.
The most difficult thing about accessibility is - what helps one person will hinder another, and even completely stop some people.
How do you choose what to use?
This could be a good way to expose people to options that are available, that may work for them, however, don't expect it to work for everyone.
Good luck!
@UncoveredMyths @alexisbushnell Designing for schools (and before that, adult learners) this came up so often. The only (unsatisfying) conclusion was the old adage “you read best what you read most”, which we used to argue against a client insisting we use Comic Sans “as blind people prefer it” (yes they said that). Arial isn’t great but it is everywhere.
@aegir @UncoveredMyths yeah that's the thing isn't it, there is no "accessible to everyone."
I guess in this instance the Open Dyslexic font is more accessible to me and I am (or would be) giving the presentation.
I read out everything on the slides as I mostly use them as prompts for me and a reminder for the audience of what we're talking about right now, and then provide print outs and digital versions of my script and info so people can access it however they want.
@alexisbushnell I don't see how your tutor can reasonably object to it, especially with you reading it out. “I need it to deliver the presentation" feels like a reasonable accommodation, right?
@aegir in this instance it's less important because I'm not actually delivering the presentation. They just want the slides and the script, that's all.
But it seems like a weird assignment all around tbh. I get what they're going for but I feel like they've made it more complicated than it needed to be and added a whole load of potential issues they weren't prepared for by doing it this way!
1 more replies (not shown)
@alexisbushnell have you met anyone Dyslexic who prefers Open Dyslexic? The consensus in the accessibility professional space is that plain, widely used fonts like Arial are actually more readable (there was a little empirical research, but I've not seen anything absolutely conclusive). I'd be happy to start recommending it again if I can find any evidence to the contrary.
But this doesn't make their response OK, their response is still wrong - things designed to serve accessibility needs should not be dismissed as informal or unprofessional.
@mallonbacka oh that's really interesting, thank you. I was under the impression that the research had shown it was more accessible for both Dyslexic folks and a lot of other people for various reasons.
I know I certainly find it a lot easier to read and I'm not dyslexic, so I am somewhat bias.
I'll have a look into the research when I have some time and see what the current info is saying.
@alexisbushnell I don't know if you're anything like me, but I hope I've not just opened up a rabbit-hole of research that prevents you from making progress on the assignment 😬
A good starting point is this one, from 5 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8IOqUl1zII
For a heavier academic study, this one is quite thorough and even older (open access): https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2897736
@mallonbacka you absolutely have but it's fine! lol! I'm focused on work work today, more assignment stuff on Sunday. So deep diving accessibility stuff will be a next week thing!
I super appreciate the info.
@alexisbushnell Tutor, as in co-student?
@rojun no, tutor as in the person doing the teaching.
The reply has utterly floored me because it amounts to "no, consider you're audience, this is a formal presentation."
I am writing a reply to make clear just how ableist and frankly wrong that is. But I am completely shocked and fuming.
2/2
The saga of this assignment continues. Both in terms of accessibility and just generally.
They want us to include media (cool, yep, with them on that), but because of the format of submissions, I can't embed video into it.
So I'm having to grab a screenshot of the video that I would have embedded and make a note of the timestamps. And now figure out how to include that without using the word limit in my notes & without making the slide ugly and ridiculous.
ok I have sent an email to my student mentor which is basically
"why is none of this information that is necessary to tailor it to the audience available? why are they even doing it this way if they just want proof we can use evidence to make an argument? why is there no accounting for legal requirements and other stuff that would be part of any formal presentation? I don't understand and this makes no sense at all."
@alexisbushnell
I've only read what you've posted in this thread but this all feels like your tutor is saying "you're audience" are all neurotypical. It's not like you want to make it all pink and frilly with hearts over the i's. OU tutors really should be aware of neurodiversity. For what I've read here, it doesn't sound good enough to me.
@alexisbushnell The student experience: suffer, cope and survive.
@rojun every time I do an assignment I feel more and more like I am just too autistic for education
@alexisbushnell i am Dyslexic and i hate the Dyslexic Font Not helpfule
Ab bether fit is a font White biger spaces and biger spaces kann be aschift White almost ever Programm Arial White big spaces it gode
@TheHorrorOfEmbrodery thanks. Someone else said it's not done better than Arial in trials.
I'm bias in that I find it easier to read and I'm not dyslexic.
Someone else has suggested Atkinson Hyperlegible so I'm going to look into that.
Some of the issue is just that there's no such thing as completely accessible because people's access needs are different. What works for one can be worse for another.
I just disagree that a font designed for accessibility is inherently "not formal."
@alexisbushnell
i agree Whit the accessible part Anything is better than serif fonts; we can all agree that the serif fonts are mostly unhelpful.
for me it is helpfule to color stufe whit a Browesr adonn oder a screnreder
@alexisbushnell Ugh. Sorry you got that reply.
I work for the OU & am part of their accessibility champions group. Would you like me to take it up with them? If so, could you PM me and I'll have some follow-up questions on how you want to play it.
Also, Atkinson Hyperlegible is a free font I've used when OpenDyslexic is frowned upon.
@vic oh wow, thank you so much, that's really kind of you!
Yes please, I'll PM you now.
I will absolutely check out that font too, thanks.
@alexisbushnell that is terrible i am so sorry to hear that
i once had somebody tell me something similar. i feel your anger.
@alexisbushnell Wow! Best of luck with calling that out.
@alexisbushnell i would ask politely, is it a presentation where you can guarantee that no one in the audience has dyslexia?
@alexisbushnell a more sensible response from your tutor would have been to say, I need all of them to look the same.So that I can judge them properly against each other, and we will discuss accessibility after the judging of the presentations. That way, it's something that's covered. But the east of marking is also there.
@Tattooed_Mummy ease of marking was not mentioned at all. The only reason given was the audience.
On the info it says we'll be marked on if the tone, etc is right for the audience. So it seems the only issue she has is that the font itself isn't "formal."
@alexisbushnell as someone who used to work in the NHS where the default font is aerial, I used to give loads of talks to loads of people. I used cartoons and wow sounds and typewriter Style fonts and all kinds of stuff, because you need to keep people interested in your presentation as much as do a formal presentation.
Formal presentations are notoriously boring and no one remembers anything
I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.And I hope you come to some sort of sensible compromise
@alexisbushnell that's just .... not a thing
@Tattooed_Mummy @BjornW thanks, yeah I will bring up those points in my reply.
@alexisbushnell sounds like incompetence to me. Perhaps you can point them towards laws about accessibility?
Why not make the first slide of the presentation in the most boring Arial and explain on it, why it is important - esp. in a professional context - to overcome your preconceived notions of what is or isn't professional and then continue in dyslexic to be more inclusive?
I have the sort of autism that loves Helvetica etc. But I have seen how OpenDyslexic registers faster with other people and I love how that it is a good thing for everyone.