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Cory Doctorow
Cory Doctorow
@pluralistic@mamot.fr  ·  activity timestamp 8 hours ago

1. I am a Jew, and the son of Jewish war refugees.

2. That is not an antisemitic illustration, it is an anti-monopoly illustration.

3. The original (from Puck Magazine) depicted the empire of John D Rockefeller's Standard Oil; it is perhaps the most famous work of anti-monopoly illustration in history.

4. I categorically reject the idea that negative depictions of the power of the wealthy and/or of the finance sector are antisemitic.

(ETA: referencing this https://mamot.fr/@axolottel@troet.cafe/115799819220636077)

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Bill Seitz
Bill Seitz
@billseitz@toolsforthought.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 16 minutes ago

@pluralistic https://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/digital-library/o277854/

Theodore Roosevelt Center

Next! - Theodore Roosevelt Center

A "Standard Oil" storage tank appears as an octopus with many tentacles. It is wrapped around the s...
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Neo Ehproque
Neo Ehproque
@ehproque@neopaquita.es replied  ·  activity timestamp 34 minutes ago

@pluralistic but what about... This!

A cute plush octopus
A cute plush octopus
A cute plush octopus
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Randy Hughes-King
Randy Hughes-King
@dobetterinstitute@twit.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 hours ago

@pluralistic Thank you for speaking common sense because we need it more and more. This is the same distraction as hating highways because Nazis built the autobahn. Octopus' existed before Nazis, we can't let racism own natural references without intent. Its like being antifascist and bringing checker pieces to the chess board to serve up their red meat where there is none thus becoming an unwitting pawn of their message. And good luck getting tentacles out of anime or scifi references *eyeroll*

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Godfrey642
Godfrey642
@Godfrey642@aus.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@pluralistic

I wasnt aware of this symbolism till just now when I searched symbolism of octopus.
Apologies.

Content warning.
I fcking hate racism.

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Cory Doctorow
Cory Doctorow
@pluralistic@mamot.fr replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@Godfrey642 The idea that world-girding octopuses are used exclusively or even primarily as antisemitic tropes is categorically false. The US National Reconnaissance Office uses it on its own mission patches, and antimonopoly movements have used it continuously since the time of JP Morgan and JD Rockefeller.

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Godfrey642
Godfrey642
@Godfrey642@aus.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@pluralistic

JP Morgan and Rockefeller were both US companies who traded with Nazi Germany and directly aided Hitler financially. There were many others as well.

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Cory Doctorow
Cory Doctorow
@pluralistic@mamot.fr replied  ·  activity timestamp 2 hours ago

@Godfrey642 yes, and the octopus was used to depict both of them. By Jews.

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Cory Doctorow
Cory Doctorow
@pluralistic@mamot.fr replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@Godfrey642 Moreover, these antimonopoly and anticapitalist movements have always featured Jewish members and leaders. Claiming that using octopuses to represent far-reaching power structures is an antisemitic trope is to erase the work and sacrifice of these Jewish radicals and to credit *actual Nazis* with their work and ideas.

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Godfrey642
Godfrey642
@Godfrey642@aus.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@pluralistic

Begs the question, maybe they shouldn't have used it?

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Cory Doctorow
Cory Doctorow
@pluralistic@mamot.fr replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@Godfrey642 Or maybe Jews should get to decide for themselves whether we want to surrender our longstanding political symbols to Nazis.

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Godfrey642
Godfrey642
@Godfrey642@aus.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@pluralistic
Fair point.
For you to decide.

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xs4me2
xs4me2
@xs4me2@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 4 hours ago

@pluralistic

Basically someone making a connection here that is not there…

There is so much to be said on this, that I cannot even start to think where to begin. Certainly not in a 400 character toot…

One of the ironies is medieval christians not allowing Jews in guilds and professions but did not exclude trade and banking. That and the connection to the crucifixion of Christ… there you have your evil resentment and envy raising its ugly head over and over again. We never learn.

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Traumkämpfer
Traumkämpfer
@Traumkaempfer@sueden.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 6 hours ago

@pluralistic There are also those in that thread that can’t wrap their head around the fact that it’s possible to be jewish and against genocide, because apparently everyone in Palestine belongs to the Hamas, is therefore against all Jews and deserves to die.

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Sozan
Sozan
@GRA3432@mastodon.world replied  ·  activity timestamp 6 hours ago

@pluralistic Germans.

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Martijn Vos
Martijn Vos
@mcv@friendica.opensocial.space replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 hours ago

@GRA3432 @pluralistic

I don't like generalising about entire countries, but there does seem to be a weird, twisted, inside-out view of antisemitism appallingly popular in Germany. It seems to focus only on the symbolism of it, and not the actual content. They seem to feel obliged to support Israel, even when they're committing genocide, completely missing the point of why antisemitism is wrong, and ignoring the fact that that puts them on the side of fascists, racists and antisemites who enthusiastically support Netanyahu's genocide.

It's not just Germany; I see it in right-wing politicians in other countries too. Dutch conservative VVD-leader Dilan Yeşilgöz also had a scandal a while ago where she accused people of antisemitism for opposing the genocide in Gaza. But the attitude seems more common in Germany. See also their position on Israel's participation in the Eurovision Song Contest.

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Cybermatron
Cybermatron
@TheCybermatron@someone.elses.computer replied  ·  activity timestamp 6 hours ago

@pluralistic Not to detract from your original point, but just to say that German schooling is designed to highly sensitise people to “Jud Suess” type imagery, which - given that it was mostly created during the same period you refer to - looks incredibly similar in style. So, while I fully accept your argument for using the images you use, as a German, I nevertheless emotionally flinch every time you do and have to remind myself.

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Graham C
Graham C
@adamantichrist@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 7 hours ago

@pluralistic what is the image

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petterroea :verified: :archlinux: :nix:
petterroea :verified: :archlinux: :nix:
@petterroea@infosec.exchange replied  ·  activity timestamp 8 hours ago

@pluralistic isn't the idea that negative depictions of the power of wealthy is antisemitic somewhat antisemitic in itself??

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funbaker
funbaker
@funbaker@chaos.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 8 hours ago

@pluralistic to 4.: people who does that are the actual antisemites, because THEY make that connection, not the anticapitalists.

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