Post · bonfire.cafe

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange · 4 weeks ago

Approaches that might work better involve integrating a good instance picker into the signup process, or an onboarding flow that treats the initial instance as a "starter instance", a base for exploring that makes it easy to move to another instance. Realistically though it's not clearly how likely it is that Mastodon gGmbH will prioritize the work that's needed to support either of these -- which isn't an argument against pushing for them, just that we should be looking for other alternatives as well.

In general it seems to me that might be better to focus our efforts in terms of making it easier to join communities in fedi as a whole, not just Mastodon. For many people something other than a Mastodon-based instance may well be a better choice. Of course that still leaves the problem of people who search for "mastodon", or have read an article about Mastodon and followed the links to either the Mastodon app or joinmastodon ... but I don't know how to address those without Mastodon gGmbH's cooperation,

@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

Julian Fietkau

@julian@fietkau.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn I'm personally also quite intrigued by the idea of treating the default as a “tutorial server”. Video games manage to design sandbox areas that anyone can use to try out new toys, but that naturally get boring after a while unless you leave them and explore. I think trying to translate that concept to fedi servers could be fruitful, albeit difficult.

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@julian @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips very much yes to the tutorial server idea (I think of it in terms of a paddling pool…) and the idea would very much be you get funnelled out if it once you’ve got a basic understanding of what choosing a server actually entails and to what extent it does (and doesn’t) matter.

(but if all we have is a default server then it would still be better they rotated, and default servers should also be exceptionally well moderated to qualify…)

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips@social.growyourown.services replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy

Currently they are presented with these two buttons:

"Sign up on mastodon.social"
"Pick another server"

Funnelling people into a tutorial they didn't ask for, and then forcing them to leave the server they asked to sign up on... it doesn't seem like a good idea? Surely it will confuse and annoy people?

If there is a tutorial make it appear on whatever server they choose and make it optional. You don't need everyone on one server to do tutorials.

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy Here is the reasoning behind a tutorial server/paddling pool. Servers matter, they do matter and they should matter and I think we all, in this discussion, agree that fedi’s strength is the ability to build around communities. So we should, I think, start by telling people that; not by telling them they need to make a choice that doesn’t matter when it does. If you already know what a server is you should of course have that option “Pick your own server”. The other option would be “Get started here and pick one later”.

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips@social.growyourown.services replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy

It's fine to have an optional tutorial, that would be a great resource.

“Pick another server”
“Get started here and pick one later”

These would be good options, but so many people say they just want to get started straight away without any picking, that they would demand a "Sign up on (XXXXX)" option too.

So this would give 3 options:

"Sign up on (featured rotating server from reliable pool)"
"Pick another server"
"Tutorial server to help you choose"

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

We've got years of experience showing that people are more likely to have a good experience on smaller well-moderated instances than on large open-registration instances, let alone badly-moderated or unstable open-registration instances. So today's options are really

sign up on (featured rotating instance from reliable pool), get going immediately, and probably not have a good experience.
pick another open-registration instance, get going almost as quickly, but probably not have a good experience (and potentially have a very bad expereince). (This was basically the situation before they made .social the default)
do the work to find a well-moderated smaller instance (recommendation from friend, fedi.garden, etc), wait for your application for registration to be accepted, and have a better chance of having a good experience.

One way to look at a "paddling pool" or "tutiorial server" is that it's a way for people to get going immediately with something on the path to finding the well-moderated smaller. It seems to me that could work if there's a way for it to be interesting enough (and well-moderated enough) that they feel that they're getting value and it's worth exploring more. Otherwise it's likely to be a barrier for most people. But then again, if people who go through it actually wind up getting to an instance that's a good match, it might still result in more people having a good experience. Hard to know!

@FediTips @UlrikeHahn @julian

1 more replies (not shown)

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@FediTips @julian @thenexusofprivacy the problem with the tutorial being on the server is that it won’t fix the issue of inadvertently choosing a poorly moderated server and having a terrible experience as a result…

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn' has also brought up the idea of something similar to a "tutorial server" with limited functionality ... it's intriguing. one challenge is how to get enough interesting stuff there for people to decide it's worth exploring further. If it's just a tutorial that people have to go through to get to the next stage, then the risk is that unless folks are really really committed they're likely to lose interest.

@julian @FediTips

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips@social.growyourown.services replied · 4 weeks ago

@thenexusofprivacy @UlrikeHahn @julian

"Rotating the default doesn't seem to me like it would address the :"good experience" aspect of the problem."

It's not about that at all, it's not about UI or UX.

The problem is about what happens to the network if it centralises. There are many important reasons why the Fediverse is decentralised: https://fedi.tips/why-is-the-fediverse-on-so-many-separate-servers/

All these reason get squashed if mastodon.social becomes over 50% of the network. The network would eventually "enshittify".

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

We're looking at things differently.

From my perspective, .social's steadily increasing percentage of Mastodon users is only part of the onboarding problem. Any improvements are going to require either a significant change of attitude from Mastodon gGmbH or a completely different way of thinking about onboarding -- or both! So I'm more interested in trying to address the issues more broadly.

You're separating it into different problems, which is also a valid way of looking at it ... but if the problems are interetwined, then there's no guarantee that the effort put into making progress on one problem gets things noticeably closer to an overall solution. My guess is that we have different intuitions about how decomposable the overall problem is.

@FediTips @UlrikeHahn @julian

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

And actually I'd go farther and say it might be better to focus on community-led alternatives to commercial social networks in general -- not just fedi. For people looking for a US-focused, Black-centric microblogging experience, Blacksky might well be the best option today (and as Northsky becomes more real, that's likely to be a good option for a North American-focused 2SLGBTQIA+-centric microblogging experience). For people looking for a Palestinian-friendly photo/video-sharing app, Upscrolled might be a good option even though it's not decentralized.

@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@thenexusofprivacy

I feel that its worth pointing out in these conversations that nobody starts new servers anymore. Its hard (to measure kinda impossible now since fedidb removed the 'first seen' statistic, and server age does not show up in nodeinfo), but virtually no new servers have been started since 2024 that have gotten over 1k mau, I think it was like 4 total (this spring when the stat was still available)

@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

It's a great point. Fediverse Observer still h as this info and from a quick pass it seems like the only new Mastodon instances with > 1K MAU that have started in the last two years are qlub, a québécois social network, and the alt-right server noauthority.social (which isn't completely new, since it was a split from noagenda.social). There are also a handful of peertube, wordpress, nodebb, and snac (!) instances.

( https://fediverse.observer/list and sort by Active Users)

@laurenshof @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian @FediTips the fact that there are no new largish instances makes it seem like an opportunity to create a “starter instance” that could combine tight moderation with friendly people willing to help newcomers around…

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips@social.growyourown.services replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn @thenexusofprivacy @laurenshof @julian

The best instances for new people are smaller instances. They have admins that are easy to get hold of, friendly, and tend to be very tightly moderated because they have a much higher moderator to user ratio.

You don't need a starter instance, you just need to be sending people to well-run instances that have been operating with a good track record for years (which you can find at https://fedi.garden/servers-sorted-by-founding-year/ for example).

Julian Fietkau

@julian@fietkau.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips @UlrikeHahn Anecdotally, I have been in contact with a professional association that is cautiously interested in hosting a Mastodon server for (possibly) a few hundred MAU in Germany, but is very scared of the social media liability laws that have gone into effect lately, some of them on pretty short notice.

Talking to them is an interesting mix of “we don't have a mandate to take this kind of risk” and “if we can't figure this out, then who can?”

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips this is the kind of situation this new Mastodon service is aimed at, no? https://joinmastodon.org/hosting

Managed Mastodon

Fedi.Tips 🎄

@FediTips@social.growyourown.services replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn @julian @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy

There are already many good independent managed hosting services for Masto and Fedi instances such as https://masto.host or https://fedihost.co or https://cloud68.co

It would be even more centralisation if Mastodon gGmbH was hosting other instances, they would become even more tempting for corporations to buy out.

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@FediTips it’s not a supply side problem it’s a demand side problem

@UlrikeHahn @julian @thenexusofprivacy

Julian Fietkau

@julian@fietkau.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@UlrikeHahn @laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @FediTips Maybe! It's very much on my radar in this context.

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 4 weeks ago

imo a core problem is that perceptually, an app is usually tied software (the mastodon app) instead of network (the fediverse app) or server (the indiewebsocial app)

@thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

The Nexus of Privacy

@thenexusofprivacy@infosec.exchange replied · 4 weeks ago

Mo-Me is leaning into this dynamic. For #MediaLiberationDay, it was very useful to be able to point people to Mo-Me to get started (as oppose to "start by picking an instance" or "start on .social"). And I wouldn't call it a "paddling pool" since it's got pretty rich functionality and is fully federated, but it's definitely an example of what I think of as a "starter instance".

One of the challenges with the app focus though is it's likely to reinforce the default tendency on flagship instances. If I want to use Piefed-the-app, it's natural to sign up on piefed.social; even though they're putting a lot of work into helping people choose an instance when they sign up (and kudos to them for doing it!), why not just sign up on piefed.social? It's hard to answer that without talking about instances and why they matter!

@laurenshof @julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 4 weeks ago

@thenexusofprivacy
Yeah MoMe is a great example

I get your point on how app focus also increases flagship importance. But I think that also partially points to that we keep trying to see the platform software as neutral with all expressions of community coming from servers, and I’m increasingly starting to feel that’s a dead end

@julian @FediTips @UlrikeHahn

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips Laurens, can you say more about this?

2 more replies (not shown)

Ulrike Hahn

@UlrikeHahn@fediscience.org replied · 4 weeks ago

@laurenshof @thenexusofprivacy @julian @FediTips interesting! wasn’t aware of that!

bonfire.cafe

A space for Bonfire maintainers and contributors to communicate

bonfire.cafe: About · Code of conduct · Privacy · Users · Instances

Bonfire social · 1.0.1-alpha.8 no JS en

Automatic federation enabled