Post · bonfire.cafe

@laurenshof@indieweb.social · 3 months ago

yes it does. atproto works quite different from activitypub, but the summary is as follows. Every decentralised network needs 3 parts:
data storage
application logic (stuff like counting the number of likes on a post)
a client (the website you log in to)

fediverse combines this into a single server: mastodon.social stores my data, it counts all the likes on all the posts i see, and when i visit mastodon.social i see my timeline

1/2

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@inquiline @crazyeddie

atproto splits this into 3 separate parts
data hosting is on a PDS (personal data server), and you can any PDS you want to use the bluesky app
a separate piece of software called an appview indexes the entire network, and counts the likes on all posts
the client is separate again, this is just a framework that gets its data from the appview

bluesky the company provides all 3 parts, but you can create your own individual part for each layer and still use the same network

numanumayey

@breathOfLife@mastodon.social replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof @inquiline @crazyeddie

i'm still quite confused between the actual differences between atproto and activitypub.

could you put it down in a diagram or something?

Strypey

@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof
> a separate piece of software called an appview indexes the entire network

That's a Relay. The AppView is the client. Otherwise your description is pretty much right;

https://dustycloud.org/blog/how-decentralized-is-bluesky/

TBH I'm not sure about this, but I'm guessing all 3 component play a role in counting Likes. With Likes indexed by the Relay, stored in the PDS of the account that made the post, and displayed by the AppView.

@inquiline @crazyeddie

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@strypey @inquiline @crazyeddie

no, when i use index i mean creating a database of the entire network. the relay just broadcasts the network

the relay is just an optimisation piece that prevents an overload of consumers on PDSes, that has gotten wayyyy to much attention compared to how important it is

appviews is definitely not a client? its a database with all interactions. constellation is a minimal example of an appview: https://constellation.microcosm.blue/

Strypey

@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof
> the relay is just an optimisation piece that prevents an overload of consumers on PDSes

Unless @cwebber is wrong (and she hasn't been corrected yet), the Relay sits between the PDS and the AppView. It's not possible to overstate the power that gives the operators of the only Relay in the current network.

> appviews is definitely not a client? its a database with all interactions

These are not mutually exclusive.

@inquiline @crazyeddie

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@inquiline @crazyeddie

thats how blacksky works:

they first created their own data storage for blacksky users. people who are on the blacksky PDS can use any client or app as the same, so they also could use the bluesky app and exactly nothing changed

blacksky then released their own client at https://blacksky.community/. literally any atproto account (including nonblacksky users) can use this. when you use this client you see the exact same network as if you used bsky.app

tools for commensality 🧿

@inquiline@assemblag.es replied · 3 months ago

Thank you @laurenshof for all this info! Really helpful

@crazyeddie

numanumayey

@breathOfLife@mastodon.social replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof @inquiline @crazyeddie

so it's a bit like matrix but the synapse server is split into "thing with all the messages" and "thing that makes messages work on other things with all the messages"

Strypey

@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof
> people who are on the blacksky PDS can use any client or app ...blacksky then released their own client

OK, so are they running their own Relay? I know they aspire to, but I had a good rummage around the web and couldn't find clear confirmation this has happened.

Until there is more than one Relay, the ATmosphere is only as decentralised as early Titter, back when API access was freely available for third-party apps. In others words, it's not.

@inquiline @crazyeddie

numanumayey

@breathOfLife@mastodon.social replied · 3 months ago

@strypey @laurenshof @inquiline @crazyeddie

>are they running their own Relay?

i believe the answer is a resounding "fuck yes"

https://github.com/blacksky-algorithms/rsky

Strypey

@strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz replied · 3 months ago

@breathOfLife
That link shows they're developing their own Relay software. That's great.

"This library is a work in progress. Things will change. Things are incomplete. Things will break. Until the project reaches version 1.0.0, stability will not be guaranteed."

https://github.com/blacksky-algorithms/rsky

But are they running a Relay in the wild, and could I use it in place of the BS Relay? Nothing in this repo answers this question.

@laurenshof @inquiline @crazyeddie

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@strypey @breathOfLife

its live at https://atproto.africa/

theres 5 ppl/orgs running publicly accessible relays, you can compare them at https://compare.hose.cam/

i know of at least another 5 ppl who run their own relays but dont publicly advertise the endpoints

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jonny (good kind)

@jonny@neuromatch.social replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof @inquiline @crazyeddie the relay is really the most important part since it determines what exists, and their independent relay is also v impressive, a totally independent implementation as well as independent system.

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@jonny @inquiline @crazyeddie

totally agreed on blacksky's independent implementation being very impressive!

I do not think relays are that important though:
- phil runs 3 independent relays with microcosm, and they have the "problem" that nobody is actually interested in consuming from an independent relay
- phil's relay comparison (https://compare.hose.cam/) gives an indication that were close to realtime comparisons between relays to spot misbehavior of relays

Laurens Hof

@laurenshof@indieweb.social replied · 3 months ago

@jonny @inquiline @crazyeddie

like, on paper relays look like a bottleneck in the system architecture, but a system that you can drop-in replace with alternatives or self-host for like 30$/month, while being straightforward to spot bad behaviour is not an actual bottleneck imo

(tbc, this is partially based on phil showing their upgraded unreleased version of the relay compare, where they easily managed to find the 4 pds hosts that bsky has banned from their relay (obvious nazi pdses))

jonny (good kind)

@jonny@neuromatch.social replied · 3 months ago

@laurenshof
"Nobody is interested in using a 3rd party relay" is exactly why they are important. Whether they are easy to host or not is not really relevant to whether or not they gate what exists or not in the network. If you're cut off of the relay, you're invisible, even if you show up on the relay comparison site. Glad that the Nazi pdses are gone. I wonder what would happen if one tried to host more controversial but targeted metadata like DMCA gray area data on the main relay. I'm glad there are independent implementations, because if there weren't, it wouldn't work.

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