Post · bonfire.cafe

There's a popular "digital rights" perspective that turns "not having kids on social media before 14 or 16" into a binary. That allows to make this a thing about overreach and censorship and all that. In combination with the complexities of ensuring access/restrictions it builds a great straw man.

But I do totally think that just throwing kids into general social media (think Instagram, TikTok but also Bluesky or Mastodon) is harmful to them and is just us older people being lazy and not wanting to give them time to grow into this digital life.

But it's not a binary. There is value in creating spaces for kids to express themselves and find community and their own voice. Question is how to build that in ways to protect them - not just from creeps but also the negative side effects of many commercial social media platforms.

It's not "but Kids need to learn to live with social media so let's throw them on TikTok". It's about figuring out ways for kids (or TBH some older people as well) to make those experiences in the digital "non-swimmer's pool". (Not sure if digital swimmers exist.)

Heliograph

@Heliograph@mastodon.au replied · 2 months ago

@tante i really like this

"figuring out ways for kids (or TBH some older people as well) to make those experiences in the digital "non-swimmer's pool"

this would give folks the right + enough time to learn how to integrate digital aspects into their lives, without being all consumed and overwhelmed (=drowned)!

#digitalLiteracy #digitalLife #learnersPool

Dmitri Ravinoff

@toxomat@social.tchncs.de replied · 2 months ago

@tante
It's mighty difficult: On the one hand side, you ought to watch and communicate about their SoMe life with them. On the other hand, that defeats the purpose and a lot of attraction: Their **own** space. So I drift towards making such networks inaccessible (not as an individual measure, needs to be society) as a solution.

Oberst Enzian

@oberstenzian@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante Anyone under 18 does not belong on any social media at all. I don’t approve of what the UK is doing at all. But if there was a legitimate non-authoritarian way to do age verification for access to certain things I’d support it.

In the absence of that, I use parental controls. I also use a tactic most parents in the US seem to avoid like the plague: I have actual conversations with my crotch fruit about things. But that only solves my fam’s issues.

Simon Forman

@carapace@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante We built an electronic Skinner Box, it should _not_ be the default assumption that everyone should get in the box ("this digital life"). The problem isn't how young to begin to strap children into the box. It's that we don't know if the box is a good idea at all.

ben moretti

@morebento@aus.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante excellent suggestions! They do have this or my daughter did at least when she was younger with minecraft servers and being able to chat in game. An explicitly social media with safer moderation for kids would really mean being algorithm less as I think that is much of what drives harm.

Dietmar Kammerer

@dietmarkammerer@openbiblio.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante Agreed. I also don't buy the argument 'what good are legal regulations anyway, the kids will always be able to circumvent technical restrictions and access TikTok'. Even if this is true, legal regulations would be a statement, loud and clear, that there is a consensus that these platforms are possibly harmful for our kids.

Thomas Dorr

@thomasdorr@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante
Unfortunately it's easier to misunderstand how children mature, what technology could actually prevent, how laws are enacted...

Then you end up with a talking point binary position, and the people the political body is pandering to are also too lazy to comprehend that it's not some simple binary.

Then the news media wants views and advertising dollars so they want it simple and further reinforcing the lazy simple binary.

Damn it, I'm now collectively disappointed in everyone.

tante

@tante@tldr.nettime.org replied · 2 months ago

This would actually be a very interesting research project to build a "under 14 Fediverse" with more moderation and restrictions with servers run by organizations who do other kinds of work with youth as well.

Sascha Foerster :bonndigital:

@Sascha@bonn.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante Daniela Vey@infodesignerin@mastodon.social
just presented parts of her results of her Fediverse fellowship: We need to bring the next generation to the Fediverse. And we should offer them an environment that they also would like to join. Maybe private school servers (with limited federation) could be a good start.
https://www.media-lab.de/de/angebote/reinvent-social-platforms/
And I personally agree that not every social network is per se bad for children (and adults by the way).

your auntifa liza 🇵🇷 🦛 🦦

@blogdiva@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

so a federated Club Penguin 🤔 🐧

@tante

Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦

@osma@mas.to replied · 2 months ago

Under-14 social entertainment existed. Well, we all had to pretend it was over-13, because of US COPPA, but this is what Habbo, Bebo, Club Penguin was. And at least at Habbo, we did it by having A LOT of moderation staff.
@tante

Glyph

@glyph@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante I wouldn’t say that this idea is *entirely* bad, but as part of the trend of children being removed from every public space and being quarantined into exurban homes with no escape but driving and dedicated childcare facilities, never to experience public autonomy until the are 22, I think it’s on the wrong track. Public spaces should be made safe for kids, kids should not be presumptively isolated for their safety

tante

@tante@tldr.nettime.org replied · 2 months ago

@glyph I think both are true. Kids have a right to exist in public, totally agree. But they also sometimes need safer spaces to develop certain skill _to be able_ to move in public spaces.

Rachel Rawlings

@LinuxAndYarn@mastodon.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante And definitely not by the companies who sell spyware-laden laptops to schools and then rat out the students who use them.

xro

@xro@chaos.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante
Mhh, it does make some sense.

We have schools and kindergartens in the physical world but nothing comparable online, yet a good portion of our lives is spent there.

Participation could never be mandatory, but onboarding in school could be.

If all friends are guaranteed to be there, that's a big pro argument.
Would need circles or server-choice to keep away from other local kids they don't want to interact with online.
Privacy and "teacher is watching me online" might be an issue.

Henning Müller

@ueberbildung@bildung.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante While this might work for young tech nerds, I doubt that Mastodon has reached a level yet, where it is considered to be appealing enough. But schools are definitely a good starting point. I would love to see projects like aula.de being combined with the structure of the Fediverse. Schools could be verified instances of trust and federate each other, building communities of shared interests.

Teckids-Gemeinschaft

@Teckids@bildung.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante Count us in.

ManniCalavera

@ManniCalavera@openbiblio.social replied · 2 months ago

@tante
A 1000 times this!
Where are school Instances of Mastodon or something where only school attendees are allowed? With moderators to prevent mobbing?

(The flaw in your argument of course: you are differentiating (is that a word in English?). Thats too much for those involved in the "protect the children" discourse)

Fabian Denhoff

@denhoff@bildung.social replied · 2 months ago

@ManniCalavera @tante teacher here. who should maintain and moderate These instances? We are heavily understaffed

YinYin Falcon

@YinYinFalcon@mastodon.online replied · 2 months ago

@tante we used to have a dedicated school class online chatroom/board some 20 years ago

I'd say that works when it's not a third party hosting/harvesting it

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