British friends: firstdirect have locked me out of my account because I use an open version of Android (Graphene), and, per the guy on the phone, "open source is not secure." Any suggestions for a UK bank that uses sensible security (e.g. authenticator app)?
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@pluralistic Have you come across this page? User-submitted compatibility evidence, so colour your evaluation of it accordingly: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/#united-kingdom
@pluralistic
They have all drunk Alphabet / iOS Kool aid.
They believe that Android App is more secure than a Web Page and claim the "Central bank" doesn't allow web based, which is a lie. And that maintaining a Web version would cost too much extra, which is a lie.
I've stopped using the bank. Not sure what I'll do if I get royalties paid into it. I guess use the Approved Android and IBAN to move the money to Credit card (stiil works on Web page) or PayPal (Still works on web page) to spend.
@pluralistic Starling requires authentication for every online purchase ever. This is pretty great but I’ve been locked out of purchasing certain things that I need such as booking a UK driving test through the DVSA (gov site) when sites can’t handle the final auth redirect.
@pluralistic
First Direct recently stopped working for my keyboard (OpenBoard) and so I have to temporarily specify gboard while I do banking. One trouble with FD is that they are a subsidiary of HSBC and I think get what they're given by the inscrutable parent. Having said that, I did call them about the keyboard and the guy was sympathetic, noted the two fDroid sourced keyboards I mentioned and said he'd raise it.
The other trouble is, along with open Androids, it's a tiny part of their customer base and it's so much easier to say no and just cater for the main base. I'd switch to Graphene, but for that!
@gregalotl I've been with fd for a couple of decades and their IT security has always been a mess. I have literally *20* pieces of stored authentication data they've sent me over the years, multiple passwords, codes, authentication questions, etc etc. Their customer service reps are usually nice (though not the guy I spoke to this morning - he was a nightmare), but the IT security is just a flailing, incoherent mess.
If it wasnt so evil it would be almost comical how absolutely corrupt HSBC is and how various governments have pretty much let them get away with it repeatedly
If it wasnt so evil it would be almost comical how absolutely corrupt HSBC is and how various governments have pretty much let them get away with it repeatedly
@pluralistic Nationwide works on a bunch of fruity flavours of open android I’ve tried, you also have the benefit of supporting a cooperative with ethical investment, voting rights and profit share.
@ADHDruid I'm looking into the Co-op bank. I had an account with them but I left after they became insolvent because their CEO was having chemsex with rent-boys and screwed up the bank's finances to the point where it ended up being de-Co-oped and taken over by a commercial bank. It's a Co-op again now and seems to be better run.
@pluralistic hahaha! Wow I remember I left them around then too, also, their internet banking was dire… moved to Nationwide and been there around 11 years.
Enjoying the new book, dude. Finally got around to starting it.
@pluralistic @ADHDruid Ah, the Crystal Methodist...
@pluralistic Barclays still works on Graphene but you'll have to disable secure app spawning for it (fortunately Graphene allows it to disable per app rather than entire phone). Monzo also works if you're OK with using card PIN or biometrics as a way to authenticate.
@pluralistic not 100℅ sure about the UK app but the Triodos Bank supports Graphene here in the Netherlands. So I hope the UK app of Triodos is the same. And we try very hard not to finance horrible things with your money when you bank with us and lots of nice things.
@pluralistic @jtonline have you told them just how much open source there is in a locked down iPhone? See if their head explodes.
@pluralistic @revk @jtonline In my experience, some institutions won’t send transfers to ‘virtual banks’, which Wise is considered. This came about with my son’s ‘child trust fund’ when he tried to withdraw
@pluralistic Monzo mostly works but I couldn't use their additional location-based security or QR codes on /e/os. Neither is essential, and Trusted Contact still worked.
@pluralistic I'm on GrapheneOS.
Wise works and uses TOTP.
Nationwide works but uses either a card reader or SMS.
Tide works, but only biometrics.
I have - mostly - gone the other way, and started using banks' websites (in Fennec), rather than using apps.
This is definitely more of a pain, with a variety of different multi-factor authentication methods but sadly no WebAuth, and also precludes banks which require an app.
But this has let me continue to do mobile banking with banks which do not support GrapheneOS.
@Edent Do you use Wise for regular banking though? I thought it was just transfers.
@pluralistic yeah. It has a regular sort code / account number. Also does Direct Debits.
https://wise.com/help/articles/2977956/getting-started-with-direct-debits
@Edent Do you worry that they're not deposit-insured under the FSCS? Seems like if they go bust, get hacked, or lose your money, you're out of luck. I can see using them for transfers, but holding a balance there seems very risky.
@pluralistic What @Edent said. I have a small amount of 'daily spending' cash in Wise which works fine on eOS and is wonderful for spending with while travelling abroard. The rest of my 'wealth' (lol) sits in a regular bank with online banking from which I periodically top up my Wise account when needed.
@pluralistic @Edent here is a good summary of their safeguarding, is that is of interest to you 😊
https://ebankalternatives.com/uk/blog/is-wise-safe-fca-fscs-safeguarding-explained-2026
@purplelotus13 @Edent Looks like Wise doesn't participate in the Open Banking scheme, which means we'd have to move 20 years' worth of direct debits, etc. I think that lets them out, unfortunately.
@pluralistic @Edent I don’t trust having any banking apps on my phone. 🤷♂️
@pluralistic they're only one of the banks I use - so I consider the risk minor.
They do safeguard the funds separately (https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/emi-payment-institutions-safeguarding-requirements).
Personally, I only keep a small amount in each regular bank account. The rest is swept into savings. If they were to get catastrophically destroyed, it would only cost me a month or so.
Less risky than keeping it under the mattress, I reckon 😄
@pluralistic they're only one of the banks I use - so I consider the risk minor.
They do safeguard the funds separately (https://www.fca.org.uk/firms/emi-payment-institutions-safeguarding-requirements).
Personally, I only keep a small amount in each regular bank account. The rest is swept into savings. If they were to get catastrophically destroyed, it would only cost me a month or so.
Less risky than keeping it under the mattress, I reckon 😄
@pluralistic @Edent I think Wise is pretty feature-complete in terms of banking these days, using it quite heavily
@pluralistic @Edent yep. You can use Wise for bankng. Your balance accounts in the Wise app have local account details (sort code, etc) you can share for banking transactions.
It's my main acct right now and I pay all my bills with it.
@pluralistic
I thought android itself is open-source ?
@pluralistic Both Starling and Nationwide bank apps work on open Android ROMs. I have accounts with both. For clarity, I use Calyx, not Graphene, but even so, you should be fine. I'm completely degoogled (no play store or services on my device).
@pluralistic Nationwide and Lloyd's work with my murena phone.