Post by @neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk

When I see statements like "teenagers are spending 4-6 hours online, instead of going outside and meeting people" as a justification for further web regulation, I wonder to myself:

- if it had been 4-6 hours reading books, practising musical instruments, creating art, or similar, would they be demanding that books, instruments etc. have a watershed? If not, why not?

- what is the "acceptable" amount of time for a teenager to spend online each day? What makes it so?

- "going outside and meeting people" suggests a particular worldview of what is "good", which will appeal to - indeed, be possible for - some people far more than others. I was never massively sociable, and that's no crime. A day at school, and now work, would involve plenty enough peopling time for me. I am far more sociable online then offline. Where are the local free places where teenagers can get to and hang out, safely, in the warm? (They might exist in some places?)

#EUKIDSAct

#eukidsact

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Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

It is also interesting to ponder what is meant by "spending time online", and how that is calculated.

Is it the same as "screen time"? And, if so, does that include time spent reading books on a device with a screen, of which I do a lot as I love my eReader?

I presume that my time reading and writing fedi posts is "online" time?

Time spent reading/replying to email? But not if I had printed the email to read on paper?

Time on calls with people? But not if I had the same meeting in a room with the same people?

Time collaborating on a document in etherpad? But not doing the same work in vim running locally?

Time watching a film from my media server (or Netflix, for the sake of argument)? But not if it were non-IP broadcast TV?

#EUKIDSAct

Hugo Mills

@darkling@mstdn.social yesterday

@neil All good questions, but an even better question is,

- Why do all these questions keep coming up, *every single time* someone tries writing one of these ridiculous laws?

sabik

@sabik@rants.au yesterday

@neil
> Time collaborating on a document in etherpad? But not doing the same work in vim running locally?

What about vim running locally but the file is in git

#EUKIDSAct

Bruno Girin

@brunogirin@mastodon.me.uk yesterday

@neil I keep having this discussion with my mum when she complains that I'm on my phone rather than "reading an article" or something and I have to explain that while she gets all her news and long form articles from TV or magazines, I get mine from the internet.

We don't have this conversation about books because I usually have paper books.

Mia

@Tautropfen@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil When I think about queer kids living in rural areas, they're just glad to be able to connect with people like themselves, at least online. You are right, it's all so much more complicated than just saying “online = bad, offline = good.”

Tijgertje1987

@Tijgertje1987@mastodon.online yesterday

@Tautropfen @neil

This indeed. This hits the teens that don’t fit in a group the hardest.

I’m born in the 90’ and above the IQ average. Think of a nerdy science girl with no friends, that was essentially me.

In my teens and early 20’s I almost lived chronically online because there I actually had people to talk to.
Well I ended up with skills I now make my money with, fellow nerd friends and a very high English skill.

Mamlena

@magdalena_nik@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil
I wonder if anyone ever ponder about how much time online adults spend because of their work. Are they going to regulate that? Because the amount of screen time at an office job has same or worse impact on one's health (both physical and mental). How is that not ok that a youngster is preparing for such fast-pace office job on pc then? How is a person growing up outside meeting people going to handle being all day everyday online at work afterwards?

AnneH

@annehargreaves@ioc.exchange yesterday

@neil What about research for homework projects?

Sundial

@GoingDownWithSundial@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil I've been following what you're sharing about this with interest. I've thought about it over the last hour and it seems I have something to say.

Like in all ages, teens get damned for just being teens. It's as though these people have forgotten what it was actually like to go through the emotional turmoil and navigational difficulty of being a teen, the pure awkwardness of puberty.

Sundial

@GoingDownWithSundial@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil Brain development is something I'm really interested in. Teens go through something called "social reorientation". They gravitate towards their friends and distance themselves more from their parents. They're basically finding their people, the group that makes them feel safe, accepted and understood. For me it was a set of very lovely heavy metal types who did look a bit scary from the outside, but were actually very sweet and kind.

Sundial

@GoingDownWithSundial@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil Now I know my autistic perspective runs away screaming from "going outside and meeeting people", but given the social reorientation aspect and the finding your people side of it, I don't think it is that easy for most teens.

As a teen, I lived in a small cut off village in the Midlands, which I'd moved to from Ireland when I was 12, so I had no childhood connections. Said village was tiny, very few other teens coexisted there, nevermind kind metalheads of a similar age.

Sundial

@GoingDownWithSundial@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil I spent hours reading, playing guitar, writing and pottering about with my sewing machine. I "socialised" at school, sometimes on a Saturday. We had a phone at home; it was in the living room.

If the internet had existed, and I'd had a computer in my room, or a smart phone, I know I'd have spent some of those hours with my friends online, or playing a game. It seems strange to call that less healthy than the various solitary ass-sitting activities I used to partake in of an evening.

4/4

Giles of the Jungle

@gilester45@twit.social yesterday

@neil $child2 is into gaming, and will happily spend a day sat at their computer if we didn't tightly limit it.

But they're playing with friends, who they have on group call. It's collaborative, it's social.

But fundamentally it's not hugely constructive, and at 12yo they really need to be developing skills they need for adulthood, not (exclusively) gaming.

I've explained if they did other things with their computer they'd have more screen time - I'm not worried about screens per se.

Martin Hamilton

@m@martinh.net yesterday

@neil Editing a Microsoft Word document with autosave enabled is "spending time online"?

Daniel Durrans

@dan@mastodon.durrans.com yesterday

@neil I think back to my childhood and early teenage years. The whole idea of a youth club did not appeal to me one bit.

Unless it was the youth club from the TV show Why Don't You.

Rocketman

@slothrop@chaos.social yesterday

@neil re the last point specifically:

We have commercialized our society so far that all the hanging-out spaces are becoming enclosed, and are disappearing.

This hits teenagers especially hard, because they usually have the least disposable money. But it’s a pretty horrific way to run a society in general.

Ryan

@fullywoolly@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil I was easily spending 4-6 hrs online chatting with friends from school on AIM, moderating a forum, learning photo manipulation with gnu imp and creating art with it, learning about linux, lots of slashdot, security focus, doing homework... Lots of school activities, had a gf, etc.

I'm with you, I was way more social online. Part of that was how my school bused kids from across the city. But that continued in a large part through undergrad.

It wasn't an exclusive or situation.

Mastodon Migration

@mastodonmigration@mastodon.online yesterday

@neil

Just replace "online" with "watching TV" and you've captured the moral panic of the two previous generations. And you know what, they were right. 🤷

Florian Schmidt

@schmidt_fu@mstdn.social yesterday

@neil
The people who have been online 4-6 hours a day back then (mostly at night, because dial-in rates) are nowadays in good part the backbone of our technical world.
And they
- talked to anonymous strangers from the end of the world
- consumed questionable content
- made equally questionable websites ("profiles")
- joined in popularity contests ("social")

Maybe we can get rid of the "screen time" argument for good, and focus on intention and media literacy somewhat...

Florian Schmidt

@schmidt_fu@mstdn.social yesterday

@neil
Not to forget: They were super privileged to be in such a position and have a head start over most of the world.
Now that everyone has this, it should be restricted? That's funny...

Giles of the Jungle

@gilester45@twit.social yesterday

@schmidt_fu @neil I was one of these people and I'm all the better for it.

However now the internet has swollen to encompass everyone we see all aspects of humanity there. Lots still good. But, just like offline society, lots of awfulness too.

The internet as we experienced it in the nineties is long gone.

Adults who grew up with the good aspects of online life are slowly waking up to the reality of mid-2020s online, and are finding it shocking.

Jules she/her

@afewbugs@social.coop yesterday

@gilester45 @schmidt_fu @neil also how good the internet was in the late 90s/early 2000s rather depended on who you were. I had a good time and got a lot out of the experience, but that was because I was very careful about following the most important rule which was never let anyone find out you were a girl. Which in retrospect is an extremely fucked up way for half of humanity to have had to behave.

Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

@afewbugs @gilester45 @schmidt_fu

> how good the internet was in the late 90s/early 2000s rather depended on who you were

Yes, very much this.

I would love everyone to have, today, the experience that I had then, but I am very mindful that not everyone had that experience.

Steve Hill 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

@steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org yesterday

@neil my view would depend on what they are doing online. Creative stuff = good, 6 hours of doomscrolling = bad.

Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

@steve

Indeed, as with being outside/offline, there are a range of possible activities and behaviours!

Steve Hill 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

@steve@mastodon.nexusuk.org yesterday

@neil yes, of course
I did immediately think that "meeting people" is considered a risky behaviour these days!

Owlor

@Owlor@meow.social yesterday

@neil It's really the same error of thinking as "kids these days spend too much time at the computer!" without really looking into what the kids are doing at the computer, which was generally some combination of expressing themselves, engaging with art, meeting friends, learning programming and commiting cybercrimes, the latter of which being perhaps not unambigiously positive but still under the general header of "learning useful skills", just in a slightly misdirected way.

Alastair Temple

@smilingdemon@mastodon.art yesterday

@neil it also assumes that there are places for them to go...

Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

@smilingdemon

Which is the last line of my toot :)

> Where are the local free places where teenagers can get to and hang out, safely, in the warm? (They might exist in some places?)

Jeff Grigg

@JeffGrigg@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil @smilingdemon

Safely and *cool* in some places, like the Midwest, where even sitting in the shade outside will get you covered in sweat. Heat warnings are common.

From where I live, that would just about only be the small local library. The nearest enclosed shopping mall is hard to get to without driving.

HollieK

@HollieK72@mastodonapp.uk yesterday

@neil @smilingdemon I'm pretty sure we don't have any local free places that teenagers can get to and hang out, safely, in the warm. They can hang out in the park, but there's no shelter. If they congregate in the shopping area, people mutter about gangs of youths and ask them what they are doing there. They can't win.

HollieK

@HollieK72@mastodonapp.uk yesterday

@neil @smilingdemon We are getting a skate park and pump track, that was campaigned for and is now being built. It will be a good place for young people, however I don't know if it's going to be free to use.

Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

@HollieK72 @smilingdemon

> park and pump

Snap! I hear that we have some local country road laybys for this!

Alastair Temple

@smilingdemon@mastodon.art yesterday

@neil so it is. I clearly haven't woken up properly yet. My bad!

Neil Brown

@neil@mastodon.neilzone.co.uk yesterday

@smilingdemon 💚

Anton Piatek

@sldrant@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil my problem is when my 15yo spend 5+ hrs on tiktok on a day when she tells me she's studying hard for exams.

argv minus one

@argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org yesterday

@sldrant

Is there a reason you aren't using the parental controls on her device to stop her from doing that?

@neil

Thatfeministwoman

@Thatfeministwoman@mastodon.social yesterday

@argv_minus_one @sldrant @neil I actually have seen alot of kids when I'm outside (usually only little boys) just "walking" home from school and they just stand there touching their phones (doing I don't know) and my first grandpa doggy always barked at them 😁 so parents can't control that.

Parent: "why does it take you an hour to get home when we live close?"

What do you do with that?

argv minus one

@argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org yesterday

@Thatfeministwoman

Monitor their location, remotely lock their apps, call them…

And be grateful kids these days all use their phones to do their mischief! In my day, kids would disappear to their favorite hangouts for hours at a time, and you'd have no idea where the hell they were until they decided to show up! I did that to my parents once or twice, and I wasn't even a particularly mischievous kid!

The entitlement and ingratitude of parents these days, I swear to God. 🤬

@sldrant @neil

argv minus one

@argv_minus_one@mastodon.sdf.org yesterday

@Thatfeministwoman

I'm not worried about kids these days. Not at all.

They're doing the same things they've always done. Now they're using their phones to do it, but big deal. Different century, same shit.

What I am worried about is all the middle-aged adults, who've evidently forgotten their own childhoods, completely failed to see the parallels, and now demand the government violently eradicate all public discourse! Something very bad has happened to these people's brains.

@sldrant @neil

Ben Curthoys

@bencurthoys@mastodon.social yesterday

@neil when books were new (novel!) then yes, there absolutely was a similar moral panic about how reading too many books was rotting children's brains.