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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

Open source maintainers of major projects (hi) are not ready to accept and talk about how the cultural insistence on permissive licensing is just straight up labor exploitation taking advantage of our addiction to popularity (also hi).

We’re doing this to ourselves too, you know.

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Beaver
@BeaverGEGLChamp@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat - Parity License is interesting but IMO the tried and true best solution is copy left only GPL3 ensuring decentralization + reciprocity and A cultural mentality that the software is free - but with norms of paying for feature request, + banning/warning people for spreading far right racism (even outside the project), and prohibiting ICE or any authoritarian group from using the software.
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Misty
@misty@digipres.club replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I spoke to a friend about this one where she said well, if you pick that license then big companies like Google won’t be able to use it. But really I asked myself why *would* I want to optimize around big companies using the software I’m giving away for free? Why does that need to be the main consideration when I pick a license?
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gkrnours
@gkrnours@mastodon.gamedev.place replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat ssh have an argument that they offer a permissive license because they want to see their secure software everywhere.
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Sophia J. Turner
@sophiajt@fosstodon.org replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat

The thing that frustrates me is that I still want those freedoms, but I only want to give them to people who aren't corpos. If someone who needs the money manages to pull off a remix of something I made, transforming it, I want them to be able to sell it. I just don't want corporations to be able to exploit.

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Kerplunk
@Kerplunk@mastodon.scot replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat

Open source maintainers of major projects (hi) are not ready to accept and talk about how the cultural insistence on permissive licensing is just straight up labor exploitation taking advantage of our addiction to popularity

Bullshit, the licensing is permissive, or fully open to keep software from shitty us big tech buyouts and monetization.

Think maintainers are totally stupid???.

Majority are not morally rotten to to the core and bowing to corporations like MS and IBM.

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wakingrufus
@wakingrufus@bigshoulders.city replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat
I think it's important to be aware of what your target audience is. If you want to build software for _people_ to use, there is no reason to not use copy-left. If you are trying to do corporate-commons development, permissive is the way to go. But understanding the differences in these modes is important. Basically, don't write permissive-licenced code unless someone is paying you to do it, imo
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Rihards Olups
@richlv@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Is that a subtoot on zsh (among others)?
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@richlv no one specifically no
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Just Bob ♒🇺🇲🪖🐧
@bob@beamship.mpaq.org replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat

I spend hours on hours of making programs. I will not be publishing on GitHub or any corporate controlled systems.

All of my code is self hosted by MPAQ. Sooner or later, I'll get around to putting a similar file sharing system online but again, it will remain SELF HOSTING.

We all must #TakeTheInternetBack !!!

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Gustavo
@qgustavor@urusai.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat hey, I just took a feature sometime implemented in a fork into the main repo without the fork contributor having any word on it (he didn't reply), it would not be possible if the license didn't allow that SataniaSmugger

(I would prefer if they fixed the existing reported issues instead of implementing a new method I never needed, but I'm fine with that GWtogaSataniaDead )

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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@qgustavor I’m primarily talking about permissive licenses. You can still do this with copyleft
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Gustavo
@qgustavor@urusai.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat oh, I get it, sure sure, true tomo_FuukaSatisfied
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Mastodon
@saintpaul12@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Action Required – Mastodon Account Verification

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Syd
@Sythelux@social.tchncs.de replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I think for very long time everyone really though: "Permissive licenses with companies behind it would work out" until the first big cases arrived of companies just closing the source or doing 'code available' like redis or chromium.

And we are just slowly changing the mindset about it. The other issue is. I don't really just want to go in on GPL

So I now do duallicensing for some projects where it is either CC-BY-SA (or similar) for private and scientific use and proprietary for business use. With the proprietary license not specific.

But I haven't found a good solution.

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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@Sythelux this wasn’t an accident. There was a very strong anti-copyleft push coming from prominent corporatist libertarians and corporations themselves to kill copyleft. It was very much intentional
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Daniël Franke :panheart:
@ainmosni@social.ainmosni.eu replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Not a fan of Stallman et al, but honestly, copyleft needs to become more popular again. And my anecdata has seen an uptick of new projects licensed under the AGPL3.
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Akseli :quake_verified:​ :kde:
@aks@scalie.zone replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat sorry im bad with terminology, do you mean licenses like MIT? (I do agree with the general message though)
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@aks permissive licenses that allow commercial use without in-kind contribution back to the commons.

Compare to copyleft licenses that require anyone using your project to release any related/connected code for the benefit of the larger community, instead of keeping anything proprietary

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Akseli :quake_verified:​ :kde:
@aks@scalie.zone replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat yepp very true, big fan of copyleft for this reason alone (not that it really stops bad actors but anyway)
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Tilton Raccoon
@tilton@fursuits.online replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I have moved more and more toward GPL after years of putting everything I make under MIT license, there’s so much abuse. It’s a one way wealth siphon from those with less power to those with more power.
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@tilton might I introduce you to https://paritylicense.com/ which is basically AGPL but readable
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gibwar
@gibwar@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat @tilton I was looking at it and the examples listed but only three of them still use it (freckles, peermq, and bitfield-db) and the rest are all Apache or MIT (and it looks like a few were changed by you years ago lol).

I want to believe but the examples makes it feel like a license that isn't worth using.

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krig
@krig@goto.liten.app replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I recently came across the perfect license. https://smallandnearlysilent.com/baba-yaga/LICENSE.txt
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

Unlike regular labor exploitation, where there’s really not much of a choice at all because you have to be part of the labor force to get any income and survive at all…

We’re literally doing this shit for free, people. What’s your excuse?

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Calicosine
@DrewNaylor@mastodon.online replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Mine's "I'm afraid of legal consequences if I use licenses wrong and I don't like the GPL because it's from Gnu and it's impossible to ban anyone you don't like from using your code but I've started using it again due to needing to use code licensed with it but with an added anti-RMS protest message because I hate the guy." What I wish was possible was to have a license as strong as the GPL that says megacorps and nazis can't use it but the GPL doesn't allow that, as I alluded to.
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Mauve 👁💜
@mauve@mastodon.mauve.moe replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I like working for companies that are into open source because I can reuse code between future projects. With closed source I lose all my code if I switch roles. 🤷

Then again I haven't made any hugely popular libraries and have low maintenance costs.

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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@mauve I’m talking a lot about permissive vs copyleft here btw
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Mauve 👁💜
@mauve@mastodon.mauve.moe replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Right! Yeah, I prefer using copyleft when I can. It's unfortunate how a lot of orgs won't touch anything but MIT licenses.
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

Building a free and open commons is still a good thing. Sharing code and projects with each other free of charge, for mutual benefit, is still a good thing.

The program is getting corpos in there who use your work for profit while demanding more work from you in the name of “supply chain security”

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Evelyn Estelle
@dragonfi@social.jsteuernagel.de replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat You know, if I ever get to that point, I will just tell them they can contribute a merge request. It will take time to review it though, because it's an unpaid hobby.

I don't understand why anyone would take these "demands" seriously. Much less why anyone would make them.

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Morgan ⚧️
@raphaelmorgan@disabled.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat ohhhh so by permissive licensing you were probably not including GNU Affero then? Sometimes I blissfully forget corporations exist, and copyleft licenses seem so permissive to me because I can do whatever I would actually want to do with the code 😂 but I can see the demand for permissive licensing being mostly about how much a corporation can exploit you 🫩
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soaproot
@soaproot@sfba.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Don't know how it has been lately but when I was an open source maintainer many years ago I'd get letters from companies trying to sort out whether their vendors were compliant with this or that. I had a form letter response which amounted to "if you want to buy a support contract (pricelist enclosed) we can talk, otherwise I'm not filling out your questionnaire or signing anything".
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eanopolsky
@eanopolsky@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I'd love to hear more about what specific work companies are demanding of you in the name of supply chain security.
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

And because someone else mentioned it: yes, fuck the OSI and its corpo ass and its part in perpetuating this bullshit

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Andrew Douglass
@ardouglass@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat someone should fork the OSI and its cry baby “that’s not freedom if I can’t use it for capitalism purposes” definition of open source.
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago

I will say that this isn’t the first time I’ve been pissed about this and last time I tried to just copyleft everything, adoption… plummeted and I balked.

But you know what, that’s on me and that’s kinda the point I’m making: we’re too addicted to the popularity. And it’s making us harm ourselves.

Better to not play tbh

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PointlessOne :loading:
@pointlessone@status.pointless.one replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat Yes!

FLOSS is a bad default. FLOSS consistently fails to address corpo problems and times and times falls into the same trap.

Yet so many people convinced themselves that it’s the only moral choice that we can’t move past FLOSS.

I’ve been telling Pedro years now that choosing a non-FLOSS license can be a solution to virtually all the corpo problems and that’s like 90% of all problems. But people can’t accept the we have to sidestep the maximally idealistic approach in order to address the actual reality.

People are convinced that FLOSS license is required to have all the nice things we like about FLOSS like community, ability to fix bugs, read the code and learn from it, etc. While licenses stipulate none of it. All of it is rather orthogonal to the licenses.

FLOSS still has its place. I think it’s still a good choice if you just want to get your code out there but don’t care to maintain it. But if you want to work on it for a long time and there even a mild chance of corpo involvement at any point it’s better to start with something different.

As a starting point I suggest BTPL (https://bigtimelicense.com/versions/2.0.2) or PolyForm licenses (https://polyformproject.org/licenses/). But just asking yourself if you can get everything you want with a license other than FLOSS when you start/publish a project might be good too. Anything but mindlessly defaulting to FLOSS.

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Evelyn Estelle
@dragonfi@social.jsteuernagel.de replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat So, if this is a hobby, why is adoption plummeting a bad thing? You do it because you find it fun, right?
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Scremlyn
@scremlin@pizza.enby.city replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I think there is a lot of merit to this when we keep the scope on "major Foss projects" not only for themselves but also people who want to emulate them. The clout economy is real.

I don't necessarily feel it holds true as you get into what are more like personal tools people keep MIT/Apache2 so that they don't have to rewrite the same boilerplate every new company they join.

Sometimes the latter can become the former though and prove the thesis all over again.

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Jeremiah Senkpiel
@Fishrock@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat I’m not sure how to feel about this; I have a career effectively because of how Wild West the whole OSS scape is/was

I think the popularity and broad usage was probably vital to actually being able to push forward into a paid career from it

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Daniel S. Reichenbach
@danielsreichenbach@mastodon.world replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat the sweet irony is that it is not labor exploitation because it's done in your spare time. More exploitation, less illegal for consuming billion dollar enterprises. 😞
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Jan Lehnardt :couchdb:
@janl@narrativ.es replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat people started trusting me with this shit in significant ways and I don’t want to disappoint them. I found a way to get paid for some of that work for me and my colleagues, but it is nowhere near sustainable.
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Fedor Indutny
@indutny@mean.engineer replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@janl @zkat I just practically don’t do OSS lately, except for my employer. All of the projects I created were fun experiments, and while I’m happy people use them I also have no intention of turning it into a full time unpaid job.
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Jan Lehnardt :couchdb:
@janl@narrativ.es replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@indutny @zkat that’s because you’re the smart one 😘
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Fedor Indutny
@indutny@mean.engineer replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@janl @zkat I wish 😅 but I’m more of a “burnt out one” than anything else
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Derrial Book
@DerrialBook@mastodon.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@indutny @janl @zkat

When "burned out one" is virtually indistinguishable from "the wise one".

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Jan Lehnardt :couchdb:
@janl@narrativ.es replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat (hi)
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Xe :verified:
@cadey@pony.social replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat future OSS Techaro stuff is gonna use this: https://github.com/TecharoHQ/alexandria/blob/main/LICENSE
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Kat Marchán 🐈
@zkat@toot.cat replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@cadey I’ve been using https://paritylicense.com/
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Syd
@Sythelux@social.tchncs.de replied  ·  activity timestamp 3 months ago
@zkat @cadey after I wrote my 2 cents about what License should I use instead I found your 2 posts and I'm liking it. This seems like a good development.
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