# content
@Ulrike Hahn

You are arguing about technicalities and nuances. This is a valid approach as long as there is an agreement about the larger framework. But there isn’t.

Whether or not a nation state is democratic is no longer a meaningful framework for analysis, according to me. (Was it ever a meaningful framework? I won’t go into that here.) That’s the essence of our disagreement.

A world/country/society characterized by horrifying levels of inequality and exploitation obviously cannot have the substance of democracy, even if it exhibits all the forms. I agree with, and repeat, what Bertold Brecht wrote all the way back in 1935.

Certain countries are still able to maintain their property relations by methods that appear less violent than those used in other countries. Democracy still serves in these countries to achieve the results for which violence is needed in others, namely, to guarantee private ownership of the means of production. The private monopoly of factories, mines, and land creates barbarous conditions everywhere, but in some places these conditions do not so forcibly strike the eye. Barbarism strikes the eye only when it happens that monopoly can be protected only by open violence.

So yes, Germany may be more democratic today than Turkey by whatever technical criteria, but it is irrelevant.

You also cited a 2016 paper which claims that the Turkish government has morphed into a competitive authoritarian regime. Within its own framework, the paper may be contentious but valid. But in this context, I would like to highlight the overall politics of knowledge production.

The funding funnels and a thousand institutional and structural constraints ensure that “knowledge” produced remains in service of the status quo, that it does not subvert it. In this setup, the exploitation and pauperization of the colonies of the global south is not part of the analytical framework. The analysis starts with the assumption that all nation states are sovereign and equal. There is also an implicit assumption that democracy is something bestowed on the people, not something that arises out of people’s movements. With those as starting points for analysis, the countries of the global south inevitably come out deficient in democracy, liberalism, human rights, free speech, rights of LGBTQ+ people, etc. as compared to the countries of the global north.

This knowledge then becomes the excuse for speeding up the exploitation by a West-backed coup or even by direct colonization. The academic setup thus acts as a vital part of the imperial/colonial machine.

(By the way: I am aware that Turkey’s situation is not like that of Sudan or Palestine or Congo, that Turkey is a European country and a member of NATO. But it is a Muslim country in an age of Muslim-phobia, and like Russia, it is the frightening “other” that mainland Europe has nightmares about. Therefore, much of what I say here does apply to Turkey.)

I am saying that your “Turkish authoritarianism in contrast to German democracy” framing snugly fits into this larger picture of academia as another arm of the empire, whether or not you were conscious about it.

Also: isn’t it instructive that you, an academic from the global north, primarily focussed on Turkey and its democratic backsliding to buttress your argument, while I, a brown person from the global south and not connected with academia, focussed on the 100+ American military bases in Germany and the impotence of the German government in the face of American actions that amounted to a declaration of war.

And if all of the above sounds abstract, let’s get back to what I said in my earlier post. Israel is perpetrating and live-streaming a genocide in Palestine for the past year and a half. The Israeli government has been explicit about their intent, they have been stating it again and again and again. Israel’s actions have formally been deemed a genocide, and the International Court of Justice has issued arrest warrants for ministers and officials of the Israeli government. Despite all this, the “liberal democratic” regimes of the Western “free world” are actively abetting the genocide. They are persecuting with the full might of the state all voices opposing their actions, including their own citizens. Neither legal nor ethical nor moral considerations hamper them. They are shredding conventions and treaties they had signed not long ago.

From where I stand, I can see the democratic and human rights of citizens (and the welfare state) in the global north vanishing right now. To me, it seems obvious that the present state of Palestine is a mirror to the future of people everywhere, including those in the global north.

In this scenario, do you honestly think it matters whether or not Turkey and Germany are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights and associated protocols, and whatever other agreements?

And yes, I know you started this thread to discuss the governance structures of social media platforms. (I agree with you that a company of any one country should not get to moderate the voices of its users from all across the world.) I myself interacted with you on the topic in another thread. We have to carry on pretending to live even as we mutely witness a genocide.

But framing even that niche topic as “Turkish autocracy in contrast to German democracy” doesn’t help, it merely advances the colonial narrative—that’s my contention.

You obviously disagree, so that’s that.

Carry on.

#colonialism #imperialism #capitalism #exploitation #inequality #democracy #Israel #Palestine #genocide #ATProto #ActivityPub #Bluesky #Fediverse #Mastodon

@Tariq @Eugen Rochko @Laurens Hof @Jon @Koen de Jonge - SynQ @Andy Piper

# source.content
@[url=https://fediscience.org/@UlrikeHahn]Ulrike Hahn[/url] 

You are arguing about technicalities and nuances. This is a valid approach as long as there is an agreement about the larger framework. But there isn’t.

Whether or not a nation state is democratic is no longer a meaningful framework for analysis, according to me. (Was it ever a meaningful framework? I won’t go into that here.) That’s the essence of our disagreement. 

A world/country/society characterized by horrifying levels of inequality and exploitation obviously cannot have the substance of democracy, even if it exhibits all the forms. I agree with, and repeat, what [url=https://autonomies.org/2024/06/bertolt-brecht-writing-the-truth-five-difficulties-1935/]Bertold Brecht wrote[/url] all the way back in 1935.

[quote]Certain countries are still able to maintain their property relations by methods that appear less violent than those used in other countries. Democracy still serves in these countries to achieve the results for which violence is needed in others, namely, to guarantee private ownership of the means of production. The private monopoly of factories, mines, and land creates barbarous conditions everywhere, but in some places these conditions do not so forcibly strike the eye. Barbarism strikes the eye only when it happens that monopoly can be protected only by open violence.[/quote]
So yes, Germany may be more democratic today than Turkey by whatever technical criteria, but it is irrelevant.

You also cited a 2016 paper which claims that the Turkish government has morphed into a competitive authoritarian regime. Within its own framework, the paper may be contentious but valid. But in this context, I would like to highlight the overall politics of knowledge production.

The funding funnels and a thousand institutional and structural constraints ensure that “knowledge” produced remains in service of the status quo, that it does not subvert it. In this setup, the exploitation and pauperization of the colonies of the global south is not part of the analytical framework. The analysis starts with the assumption that all nation states are sovereign and equal. There is also an implicit assumption that democracy is something bestowed on the people, not something that arises out of people’s movements. With those as starting points for analysis, the countries of the global south inevitably come out deficient in democracy, liberalism, human rights, free speech, rights of LGBTQ+ people, etc. as compared to the countries of the global north.

This knowledge then becomes the excuse for speeding up the exploitation by a West-backed coup or even by direct colonization. The academic setup thus acts as a vital part of the imperial/colonial machine.

(By the way: I am aware that Turkey’s situation is not like that of Sudan or Palestine or Congo, that Turkey is a European country and a member of NATO. But it is a Muslim country in an age of Muslim-phobia, and like Russia, it is the frightening “other” that mainland Europe has nightmares about. Therefore, much of what I say here does apply to Turkey.)

I am saying that your “Turkish authoritarianism in contrast to German democracy” framing snugly fits into this larger picture of academia as another arm of the empire, whether or not you were conscious about it.

Also: isn’t it instructive that you, an academic from the global north, primarily focussed on Turkey and its democratic backsliding to buttress your argument, while I, a brown person from the global south and not connected with academia, focussed on the 100+ American military bases in Germany and the impotence of the German government in the face of American actions that amounted to a declaration of war.

And if all of the above sounds abstract, let’s get back to what I said in my earlier post. Israel is perpetrating and live-streaming a genocide in Palestine for the past year and a half. The Israeli government has been explicit about their intent, they have been stating it again and again and again. Israel’s actions have formally been deemed a genocide, and the International Court of Justice has issued arrest warrants for ministers and officials of the Israeli government. Despite all this, the “liberal democratic” regimes of the Western “free world” are actively abetting the genocide. They are persecuting with the full might of the state all voices opposing their actions, including their own citizens. Neither legal nor ethical nor moral considerations hamper them. They are shredding conventions and treaties they had signed not long ago.

From where I stand, I can see the democratic and human rights of citizens (and the welfare state) in the global north vanishing right now. To me, it seems obvious that the present state of Palestine is a mirror to the future of people everywhere, including those in the global north.

In this scenario, do you honestly think it matters whether or not Turkey and Germany are signatories to the European Convention on Human Rights and associated protocols, and whatever other agreements?

And yes, I know you started this thread to discuss the governance structures of social media platforms. (I agree with you that a company of any one country should not get to moderate the voices of its users from all across the world.) I myself interacted with you on the topic in another thread. We have to carry on pretending to live even as we mutely witness a genocide. 

But framing even that niche topic as “Turkish autocracy in contrast to German democracy” doesn’t help, it merely advances the colonial narrative—that’s my contention.

You obviously disagree, so that’s that.

Carry on.

#[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=colonialism]colonialism[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=imperialism]imperialism[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=capitalism]capitalism[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=exploitation]exploitation[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=inequality]inequality[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=democracy]democracy[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=Israel]Israel[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=Palestine]Palestine[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=genocide]genocide[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=ATProto]ATProto[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=ActivityPub]ActivityPub[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=Bluesky]Bluesky[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=Fediverse]Fediverse[/zrl] #[zrl=https://klacker.org/search?tag=Mastodon]Mastodon[/zrl] 

@[url=https://mastodon.social/@rzeta0]Tariq[/url] @[url=https://mastodon.social/@Gargron]Eugen Rochko[/url] @[url=https://indieweb.social/@laurenshof]Laurens Hof[/url] @[url=https://neuromatch.social/@jdp23]Jon[/url] @[url=https://procolix.social/@koen]Koen de Jonge - SynQ[/url] @[url=https://macaw.social/@andypiper]Andy Piper[/url]